60 years - 1945 Atomic bomb is dropped on Hiroshima

[Spacey]

Al, Loved having this debate as it make me smarter but I have to run out. Have a good night.

Also, please read my post more clearly. I stated earlier, Nothing good has come out of A war. Iraq has as much to do with this subject as anything else. I am asking you what will be the positive outcome of this war, in respect to your analysis of the economy? Gas is already upsurd.

[SlimPickens]

the connection between Iraq and WWII, is that we were/are in both wars for the economics, not the human rights violations that our government uses to get us to rally around the flag.

the real irony is that the kids from the poor neighborhoods that die in these wars, whether it be Spacey\'s grandfather, my uncle, or Casey Sheehan are the ones that benefit the least from these wars.

[skalnbyc]

Also, please read my post more clearly. I stated earlier, Nothing good has come out of A war. Iraq has as much to do with this subject as anything else. I am asking you what will be the positive outcome of this war, in respect to your analysis of the economy? Gas is already upsurd.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq.  When you realized you could no longer defend yourself on the WW2 discussion, you decided to jump into an unrelated and less convincing conflict that is publicly unpopular.  

WW2 was worth defeating the stronghold of tyranny and hatred.  I guess you would prefer to live in the world that would have resulted from a pacifist stance by the U.S. in the early 1940\'s.  






As a side note, gas prices have nothing to do with middle east tensions - it\'s a supply and demand struggle.  Now that the economies of China, India and others in the Pacific Rim are becoming more expansive (and thus competetive) they are competing with the existing financial superpowers (U.S. etc.) for the oil reserves (demanding more) - creating a strain on global supply.  If you\'ll read it, I\'ll grant you access to my online Wall St. Journal subscription - may help you compete against people that work in the investment industry on economic issues.

[FrankZappa]

wow. I go out for the afternoon and al and spacey turn into freddie and leith! (just kidding guys, debate is always healthy. I agree with parts from both of you, but its way too much to go through).

I\'m gonna have to check out that book. Off to la bibliothèque!

obviously bad has come from war but so has good. Its just that the balance is usually skewed. Examples:

1 how many hundreds of thousands of people had to die in order to remove hitler from power. Hitler needed to be removed, but the cost was extreme. Depending on your views, arguments will ensue these types of points.

2 It has been argued that because of the test that the nazis did on human life (put a person in sub zero climate for as long as possible and then try to resucitate them using different materials for example) have helped curent medical practice, because we know the limitations of many things now that society would otherwise never allow us to study on humans. (the answer the germans found was that hot water worked best, cold water worked worst)
IMO, war does have goods, but the bads severly outweigh them.

the germans (sickly) actually did have a price on human life. In their records, they calculated the average legth a person could be worked before the \'to death\' point was reached, and then they counterbalanced the cost to keep the person alive during that time (food, shelter, ect.). It was not much.

Zappa, Hilter knew what those bombs could do I bet.  The US knew that Hitler had intentions to us them.

this fear, written in a letter by Einstein to the president was what lead to the chicago development which was later classified as manhatten project. Einstien knew that hitler had the concept, and as a result would (and was) working on his own. It was only dropped because supplies were low and hitler decided he wanted several known weapons like the v2 as opposed to 1 large weapon of unknown destruction.

If you want to read something really scarey though, look at what the plans were for the attack on new york hitler planned with biological warfare.
one example: Infest nats and flies with random diseases like smallpox and plague. freeze them. load them into a bomb and fly to america in a sub orbital path (keeping them frozen). When it reached the target, drop bomb over city. the only explosion was to break the sides off after x amount of time, releasing the bugs. As they fell and the temperature rose, they would thaw and go down to the city to bite humans, spreading germ warfare instantaniously.

(400TH POST!)

:thumbsup:

[Ant-Man]

If you want to read something really scarey though, look at what the plans were for the attack on new york hitler planned with biological warfare.
one example: Infest nats and flies with random diseases like smallpox and plague. freeze them. load them into a bomb and fly to america in a sub orbital path (keeping them frozen). When it reached the target, drop bomb over city. the only explosion was to break the sides off after x amount of time, releasing the bugs. As they fell and the temperature rose, they would thaw and go down to the city to bite humans, spreading germ warfare instantaniously.

(400TH POST!)

:thumbsup:

Where can I get this?  It interests me...I started to read Mein Kampf in High school but never got past the 3rd or so chapter...I was always busy...Not in a bad way or anything, just interested about history n stuff.

WHoa!  Just found the book online, go google Mein Kampf it is like the first webpage listed.

[Spacey]

Also, please read my post more clearly. I stated earlier, Nothing good has come out of A war. Iraq has as much to do with this subject as anything else. I am asking you what will be the positive outcome of this war, in respect to your analysis of the economy? Gas is already upsurd.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq.  When you realized you could no longer defend yourself on the WW2 discussion, you decided to jump into an unrelated and less convincing conflict that is publicly unpopular.  

WW2 was worth defeating the stronghold of tyranny and hatred.  I guess you would prefer to live in the world that would have resulted from a pacifist stance by the U.S. in the early 1940\'s.  

LOL

I didn\'t change the subject because I couldn\'t defend my stance. My original statement to Ant-Man was that nothing good comes out of a War. (This is why I mentioned Iraq, because according to your theory/opinion, You stated that a strong economy is a good thing that comes out of War) Plain and Simple. That is my opinion, just as you said that a strong economy was a good thing, your opinion (even though both can be argued with enough research into the topic).

I agree with you that WWII was worth defeating Tyranny and hatred in the world. I am just arguing that a strong economy is not a good enough reason for me, to believe that something good comes out of war. Because, how do we know that if a couple of things at that time changed or did differently, the same outcome would have come to be.


I don\'t know, you say it is an analysis but it is more of generalizations that you make. Tell me how did WW2 cause a stronger economy. You seem to know more about economy then I do, please you specfic examples and not just economic generalizations. (I\'m being completely ser and not a dick)
As a side note, gas prices have nothing to do with middle east tensions - it\'s a supply and demand struggle.  

Now that the economies of China, India and others in the Pacific Rim are becoming more expansive (and thus competetive) they are competing with the existing financial superpowers (U.S. etc.) for the oil reserves (demanding more) - creating a strain on global supply.  If you\'ll read it, I\'ll grant you access to my online Wall St. Journal subscription - may help you compete against people that work in the investment industry on economic issues.

Please.

on another note, Why is it when 2 people have a discussion on this board people always think we are fighting. I like Al Z and I just wanted to know what he knows and thinks.

[Ant-Man]

Nothing is wrong with a healthy debate on the boards, shit I learned some stuff I didn\'t know since then.  In fact I\'d rather debate politics/religion on a board then in face.

[Spacey]

Nothing is wrong with a healthy debate on the boards, shit I learned some stuff I didn\'t know since then.  In fact I\'d rather debate politics/religion on a board then in face.

as long as you don\'t attack someone personally, then I say it\'s all good.

[Ant-Man]

as long as you don\'t attack someone personally, then I say it\'s all good.

Right, and if you have a stance on somthing, then back that shit up dont just come in making generalized statements and such...we are all adults, we can have adult conversations.

[oldnewbie]

for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier. also, while pearl harbor was full of "military targets", we were NOT at war with japan at the time. it was a cowardly act plain and simple. the bombing, while horrific, was done while under a declaration of war and after a fair warning was given to the japanese government. while the 200,000 killed is most certainly a tragedy, this was done to save AMERICAN lives. we certainly could and would have defeated the japanese, but at what cost to ourselves. Truman had to make one of the hardest decisions that ever had to be made in the history of the world, and while villified by even his own countrymen at the time, his staure in history continues to grow IMO. W couldn\'t hold trumans dick for him to take a piss. paul is correct, germany would have used this weapon very soon if we hadn\'t. end of story!
i also visited pearl harbor three years ago. while standing on the signing deck of the USS Missouri, i looked out over the harbor to see three Japanese warships tied up. they were there for some multi national military excercise, but i cain\'t begin to explain how SEReal that was. bottom line......Truman was a hero!!!

[Igziabeher]

we are all adults

thats news to me.

[FrankZappa]

for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier.

yea, I caught that one myself watching the discovery channels special... pretty dumb mistake on my part. I planned on editing it next time I was on the board (now) but was caught out!

As far as the germans attacking america, I looked online and the closest I could find was this.

I actually learned this story from a history channel show on the secret german aircraft of ww2. I was unable to find the name of it from their web site. Most of this bio-chemical work was done by one man in the german army, but I can\'t remeber his name. I\'m sure if I could I could def find you a source.  sorry.

[oldnewbie]

for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier.

yea, I caught that one myself watching the discovery channels special... pretty dumb mistake on my part. I planned on editing it next time I was on the board (now) but was caught out!


that\'s ok paul...it was easier for me since i was actually there and all!

[kindm's]

for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier. also, while pearl harbor was full of "military targets", we were NOT at war with japan at the time. it was a cowardly act plain and simple. the bombing, while horrific, was done while under a declaration of war and after a fair warning was given to the japanese government. while the 200,000 killed is most certainly a tragedy, this was done to save AMERICAN lives. we certainly could and would have defeated the japanese, but at what cost to ourselves. Truman had to make one of the hardest decisions that ever had to be made in the history of the world, and while villified by even his own countrymen at the time, his staure in history continues to grow IMO. W couldn\'t hold trumans dick for him to take a piss. paul is correct, germany would have used this weapon very soon if we hadn\'t. end of story!
i also visited pearl harbor three years ago. while standing on the signing deck of the USS Missouri, i looked out over the harbor to see three Japanese warships tied up. they were there for some multi national military excercise, but i cain\'t begin to explain how SEReal that was. bottom line......Truman was a hero!!!

I know I am jumping in on this late in the game but as far as the whole Pearl harbor argument goes as it being cowardly. I would remind you that many folks believe this to be a huge piece of propaganda. There is A LOT of evidence that suggests that FDR knew that the invasion was coming and allowed it to happen. Also as Americans we ALWAYS forget what was happening in Asia at the time. The US was flexing its muscles and was "colonoizing" territories in the region. At the Same time Japan was doing the same thing. It was inevitable that our 2 nations were gonna bump heads. So it wasn\'t like we were sitting there doing nothing and these big bad japanese came out of nowhere and bomb our naval base in Hawaii. I know thats what the history books say but it didn\'t really go down like that. Our country has always been right in the thick of it, most folks don\'t want to admit it becuase they loose that Moral High Ground they think they have as being American.
Americans call a cowardly attack "Pre-Emptive War" so it sounds better.

So as for the argument about Germany would have used the Bomb if they had it. Maybe they would have but we will never know and that argument has nothing to do with us dropping 2 of them on Japan. Not 1 but 2. It wasn\'t 200,000 solders that died, it was 200,000 women, children, aged, disabled, solders, etc etc etc.

So did it save American servicemen lives, Sure it did. It is probably why I am typing on this computer but lets not kid ourselves. After the first bomb was dropped and the damage seen (for the 1st time I might add) and several days later it was determined we should drop another knowing full well what was gonna happen.

I bet you that we wouldn\'t have dropped 2 of them on white folks or even mediterrean people. I doubt we would have dropped any on Germany for that matter. Too many allies around Germany not to mention they look like us. Japan was a fairly isolated "testing" ground for this weapon. No other nations close by so to speak. They aren\'t white God fearing Folk and they are Extremists.

[oldnewbie]

for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier. also, while pearl harbor was full of "military targets", we were NOT at war with japan at the time. it was a cowardly act plain and simple. the bombing, while horrific, was done while under a declaration of war and after a fair warning was given to the japanese government. while the 200,000 killed is most certainly a tragedy, this was done to save AMERICAN lives. we certainly could and would have defeated the japanese, but at what cost to ourselves. Truman had to make one of the hardest decisions that ever had to be made in the history of the world, and while villified by even his own countrymen at the time, his staure in history continues to grow IMO. W couldn\'t hold trumans dick for him to take a piss. paul is correct, germany would have used this weapon very soon if we hadn\'t. end of story!
i also visited pearl harbor three years ago. while standing on the signing deck of the USS Missouri, i looked out over the harbor to see three Japanese warships tied up. they were there for some multi national military excercise, but i cain\'t begin to explain how SEReal that was. bottom line......Truman was a hero!!!

I know I am jumping in on this late in the game but as far as the whole Pearl harbor argument goes as it being cowardly. I would remind you that many folks believe this to be a huge piece of propaganda. There is A LOT of evidence that suggests that FDR knew that the invasion was coming and allowed it to happen. Also as Americans we ALWAYS forget what was happening in Asia at the time. The US was flexing its muscles and was "colonoizing" territories in the region. At the Same time Japan was doing the same thing. It was inevitable that our 2 nations were gonna bump heads. So it wasn\'t like we were sitting there doing nothing and these big bad japanese came out of nowhere and bomb our naval base in Hawaii. I know thats what the history books say but it didn\'t really go down like that. Our country has always been right in the thick of it, most folks don\'t want to admit it becuase they loose that Moral High Ground they think they have as being American.
Americans call a cowardly attack "Pre-Emptive War" so it sounds better.

So as for the argument about Germany would have used the Bomb if they had it. Maybe they would have but we will never know and that argument has nothing to do with us dropping 2 of them on Japan. Not 1 but 2. It wasn\'t 200,000 solders that died, it was 200,000 women, children, aged, disabled, solders, etc etc etc.

So did it save American servicemen lives, Sure it did. It is probably why I am typing on this computer but lets not kid ourselves. After the first bomb was dropped and the damage seen (for the 1st time I might add) and several days later it was determined we should drop another knowing full well what was gonna happen.

I bet you that we wouldn\'t have dropped 2 of them on white folks or even mediterrean people. I doubt we would have dropped any on Germany for that matter. Too many allies around Germany not to mention they look like us. Japan was a fairly isolated "testing" ground for this weapon. No other nations close by so to speak. They aren\'t white God fearing Folk and they are Extremists.

you make a number of good points mike and i\'m sure there is a lot of validity to what you\'ve said. the part that i cain\'t get around is, that FDR "allowed this to happen". do you honestly expect me to believe that he would allow a very large percentage of his navy to be destroyed at a time in history when WWI was still fairly fresh in everyones memory and when germany and japan were attacking the rest of the world, merely to sway public opinion so he could join up against them. i cain\'t buy that one. not for a second. i\'m sure that we knew something and i\'m sure that some people fucked up, but i cain\'t believe that FDR knew anything of the sort or he would have done something to try and prevent it. of this, i personally have no doubt.