No one freaking on the Healthcare Bill?

[SkyePrizm]

^Wow, you drank the kool aid, eh?

no politician is good.   and this is coming for a girl whose mother is a politician. ugh.  don\'t think any of them are actually out for us.  facists or facists.   they both are full of corruption.  obama is not making this country any better off.

[KEN RAFLOWITZ]

Changes take time, keep faith.
Yes, there are GOOD people in our political system.
Let\'s give them some support.

No politician is good? Contemplate that some more, anger is overriding reason.

[cannontrip]

It\'s things like this that make me give up hope on humanity.

But it\'s music, positive people, and sunny days that bring back that hope.

I\'ll give up healthcare reform, the drug war, anything really, if we could just find a means to come together for total benefit... I consider myself well-read on political issues, and I can\'t make sense of what\'s going on with "healthcare reform".

The way I see the issue:  complex beyond a simple distillation by either democraps or repulivegants.  Gov\'t by the people, in the true interests of the people, OR no government at all.  MONEY has corrupted the bulk majority of every side of government.

I actually believe Bush Jr. and Obama both tried to do what\'s best for the US.  EXCEPT that G\'dub was a f\'ing moron and got played like a puppet by Rove/Cheny, and Obama is a smart man with some decent plans.  I strongly disagree with BoBama on some issues (cannabis legalization), but I think he\'s honestly trying, given the complex set of cards he\'s being delt: the many "angles" of influence & responsibility within his job.

[Drew_Kingsley]

I actually believe Bush Jr. and Obama both tried to do what\'s best for the US.  EXCEPT that G\'dub was a f\'ing moron and got played like a puppet by Rove/Cheny, and Obama is a smart man with some decent plans.  I strongly disagree with BoBama on some issues (cannabis legalization), but I think he\'s honestly trying, given the complex set of cards he\'s being delt: the many "angles" of influence & responsibility within his job.

It sounds to me like you\'re giving the benefit of the doubt to the guy you like while cutting no slack for the guy you don\'t like. Bush was dealt a pretty "complex set of cards" too... you may remember a pair of commercial airliners crashing into two of the world\'s tallest buildings.

[jking]

that was pretty cut and dry, though drew... you go get the people responsible for that attack, not some unrelated party.

however, the bushes are both politically and personally too close to the saudis to bother them. remember that *none* of the original reasons for going to iraq were proven to be true. not the wmds, and not the stated international agreement of those wmds. the country wanted to lash out, but the neocons wanted a new never ending war (ala the cold war) which would keep the military industrial complex profitable, so instead of actually going after the small group of people responsible, we created a shitstorm that won\'t end anytime in the foreseeable future.

[Drew_Kingsley]

that was pretty cut and dry, though drew... you go get the people responsible for that attack, not some unrelated party.

however, the bushes are both politically and personally too close to the saudis to bother them. remember that *none* of the original reasons for going to iraq were proven to be true. not the wmds, and not the stated international agreement of those wmds. the country wanted to lash out, but the neocons wanted a new never ending war (ala the cold war) which would keep the military industrial complex profitable, so instead of actually going after the small group of people responsible, we created a shitstorm that won\'t end anytime in the foreseeable future.

I\'m not saying that W. handled the situation well; I\'m just saying that it\'s not as easy as calling one president an "f\'n moron" and the other a victim of circumstance.

[jking]

well, sure, but dubya wasn\'t an intellectual giant, you\'ve gotta admit. hell, he did more to further anti-intellectualism (being smart does not equal being elitist) than anyone since reagan. and looking at his previous history in business, every company he ran failed. so did the country he ran. but that\'s not really on topic...

[SlimPickens]

that was pretty cut and dry, though drew... you go get the people responsible for that attack, not some unrelated party.

however, the bushes are both politically and personally too close to the saudis to bother them. remember that *none* of the original reasons for going to iraq were proven to be true. not the wmds, and not the stated international agreement of those wmds. the country wanted to lash out, but the neocons wanted a new never ending war (ala the cold war) which would keep the military industrial complex profitable, so instead of actually going after the small group of people responsible, we created a shitstorm that won\'t end anytime in the foreseeable future.

I\'m not saying that W. handled the situation well; I\'m just saying that it\'s not as easy as calling one president an "f\'n moron" and the other a victim of circumstance.

I think it\'s pretty easy to call bush a f\'n moron.  He weakened this country when it was hurting the worst.  We\'ll never know, but it\'s a shame we didn\'t have a thinking president behind us after 9/11.  I wonder if the path they led us down might have had us in a better position to handle the economic shit storm of the last 2 years.

[cannontrip]

the reason I called Bush a moron was because of his narrow minded viewpoint (i.e., war without inquiry).  I think his intentions may have been good, but his refusal to even listen to opposing viewpoints labels him a moron in my lingo.  The reason I called Obama smart is because he listens to both sides and strives for cooperation instead of division.  I would actually like a hybrid of the two:  a president who listens to both sides, like Obama, and takes action with determination, like Bush.  In any case, I\'ll seek the whole picture, and always enjoy opposing viewpoints as a learning experience and a clarifier of my own opinions.

[skalnbyc]

Can we really only attribute skyrocketing costs to insurance companies for an extraordinarily unhealthy nation filled with preventable and costly ailments?  I have to subsidize every irresponsible fat fucker/a zillion preventable ills with prescription drugs & care and I\'m pissed.  Health care is getting very expensive/out of reach for the average person and I agree that something certainly has to give.  A lot of these uninsured have the money to send their middle school kids to school with cell phones, outfit their cars with rims, oufit their project unit with a satellite dish etc.....but have no money for books, pencils, healthy food.... so where are the priorities?  I agree with Slim or Jking about the food subsidies, can\'t remember which one posted. I try to live my life below my means and I\'m just disgusted by the level of irresponsibility in the government and among the populace.  Maybe we could actually treat the uninsured in a cost-effective manner if a majority had a more active interest in their health?  

I called Obama smart is because he listens to both sides and strives for cooperation instead of division.

That is :fart:

You may have believed his campaign talk of cooperation and doing things differently but you will be hardpressed to claim he is a negotiator of both sides.  He is a nannystate power grabber to the core and will steam roll/shut out the other party from any input like the worst of \'em.

He could barely rally the support of his own party to pass this thing and had to jeopardize the most vulnerable, conservative-leaning members of his party to get it done.  Massive legislation was crammed in without support of the other party does not point toward cooperation.  

Whoever else is eating the horseshit about a new trillion dollar entitlement/subsidy reducing the deficit, you have got to be kidding me.  The costs are either going to balloon on this thing or the quality of care is going to suffer (likely both).  Taxes for everyone who pays them are going up, whether they are direct or hidden increases built into every other aspect of our existence.

[SkyePrizm]

He is a nannystate power grabber to the core and will steam roll/shut out the other party from any input like the worst of \'em.

well put.

[SlimPickens]

He is a nannystate power grabber to the core and will steam roll/shut out the other party from any input like the worst of \'em.

well put.

And this differs from the previous administration, how?

[skalnbyc]

He is a nannystate power grabber to the core and will steam roll/shut out the other party from any input like the worst of \'em.

well put.

And this differs from the previous administration, how?

It\'s really not a comparison, just a rebuke to what Cannon added.  

How you doing, Slim?

[jking]

except that obama actively listened to the right and included 90% of their suggestions into the bill (well, had them put in). the right simply said, No. even after getting their way on most of their issues (like today\'s executive order banning the amount of federal funding from increasing under this new bill). the fact is, the right was unwilling to actually engage in the debate. you can\'t blame that on anyone but them. their ideas and suggestions (when they actually had any) were heeded and largely included. had they had any coherent alternatives that were outright ignored, then this argument would hold water. they never presented anything but objections. no bill of their own. no suggestions for how to achieve this legislation (again, that the majority of the country wants), just obstructionism. if you want to talk about brazen and unhelpful partisanship, mccain\'s statement that the facists will not do anything else all year is where you should be focusing your ire.

[SlimPickens]

Can we really only attribute skyrocketing costs to insurance companies for an extraordinarily unhealthy nation filled with preventable and costly ailments?  I have to subsidize every irresponsible fat fucker/a zillion preventable ills with prescription drugs & care and I\'m pissed.  Health care is getting very expensive/out of reach for the average person and I agree that something certainly has to give.  

Hey Zurflu, you\'re already subsidizing those irresponsible fat fuckers and the poor people that drive their cellphone wielding kids to school in fancy rimmed cars.

Who do you think is paying for those who can\'t cover their hospital tab?  Or the MONSTER CLAIM submitted to the insurance company because someone spends 3 months in the hospital for something that a healthy person probably could have shaken with over the counter meds?

You are.  

Why do you think your insurance premiums are going up 30% every year.

Maybe we should kill off the poor and unhealthy by not giving them healthcare... but then who would buy all those cellphones for their POOR FAT children to bring to school.

He is a nannystate power grabber to the core and will steam roll/shut out the other party from any input like the worst of \'em.

well put.

And this differs from the previous administration, how?

It\'s really not a comparison, just a rebuke to what Cannon added.  

How you doing, Slim?

doing real well Zurflu. You?

always good to have a WSJ.com reading Nazi like you in the mix in threads like this.