No more free Breakfast

[KEN RAFLOWITZ]

Just read Willie\'s bio clip.
1975 was when he got some commercial success.
He was in the music world for a long time, with many ups & downs.
He had written some hits, sold some singles.
He was a DJ. He was known, but things didn\'t click until later.
1978 was when he was established as a music star.
He was 45. It was a long slow journey to get there.

[oldnewbie]

so....this thread....at the very least.....proves  that ken knows very little about willie nelson and nothing about moe..

[KEN RAFLOWITZ]

I don\'t know anything about Moe.
The shows cost too much. Never went.
Can\'t afford to buy the music.

[oldnewbie]

the next moe. ticket i plan to buy is $27.00.

[Bret]

So, I guess this song is relevant in many ways.  Funny how time slips away, but he made it bigger than most, just look at the awe in everyone\'s faces as they watch a living legend, and apparently Ralph Emery (the guy at the end... "This is uh, this is really an interesting program") told Willie something along the lines of "You\'ll never make it in Nashville." back in the day.  Guess Willie proved him wrong...



Perseverance could get you somewhere... of course the music industry these days is nothing like when Willie was coming up...

[KEN RAFLOWITZ]

The Breakfast is half the price oldnewbie & you get twice the notes!
That\'s four times more for your money!

[Klout]

Personally I\'m not going to buy any. Maybe some noobs or even the hardcore bfam will. But good luck with that. And I deffinitly wouldn\'t try to sell anything unless it is shot in full HD, with multiple camera angles, matrix audio, professionally edited etc.

[cannontrip]

i think a compromise between free and for-profit music could be reached in many ways; here is one example:  Keep all previous free stuff as is, and record soundboards of every show (no more BUSE)... then put the best shows up for digital download (MP3 AND FLAC) and give the rest away for free.

Or employ the Disco Biscuits model and sell all soundboards but allow audience taping.

If I were looking for answers, I\'d start a thread with the current profit model and ask for a brainstorm.  It ain\'t like these boys are hiding massive profits with their current trade secrets :moo:

I\'m itchin for some live breakfast tho, gonna have to pony up some cash and hit the road...

[KEN RAFLOWITZ]

Selling good quality audio of shows is worth doing.
Download or Cd. Cd is nicer, if it gets done.
Downloading is quicker & cheaper to do.
Lesser quality recordings could be a free download if the band wants that.
Taping policy doesn\'t matter much, because there aren\'t many tapers anyway.
Video is only worth selling if it\'s multi camera hi-def.
If this ever happens depends on having the equipment, people who want to do it.
The band has to be happy with the performance, proper lighting for video,
artwork is needed, money for DVD production.
Putting up good quality audio of shows for mp3 & flac sales may be the way to go,
along with a few copies on CD for the merch table.
More video clips on youtube would be good.

[jking]

Selling good quality audio of shows is worth doing.
Download or Cd. Cd is nicer, if it gets done.
Downloading is quicker & cheaper to do.
Lesser quality recordings should be a free download.

then, if there\'s a particular show that someone loves, they can purchase the upgrade.

but if the band doesn\'t do that, if they want everyone to pay for everything, then, as someone out of the area where i can actually see them, and is now expected to pay for something they\'re not willing to let me experience live, i don\'t see the draw for me or any other non-local fan to do so. no matter how much i love the band and their music, if they won\'t tour and play somewhere i may possibly be able to actually see them live, and yet am still expected to help them make a living, then that\'s more like a charity than a band. and a charity without the writeoff, at that. i don\'t have the option of buying something from the merch table in the heat and excitement of post show glee. live recordings are to remember the show the fan was at and are advertisements to whet the appetite of the fan waiting for their next show, after all.

i\'ll pay for high quality stuff, just as i always have. but you don\'t keep (and certainly don\'t gain new) fans by not giving them a chance to see the live show, and then making them pay for recordings of shows they couldn\'t see even if they wanted to.



and ken, your comparisons with moe, the dead, etc are completely off. they can only be compared to max creek or other bands that only play in a localized area. and how rich are those guys? all of the bands you listed toured their asses off for years, no matter how much or little money they made at the time, because they knew the eventual payoff would be them being where they are now.

 

i know this post is bitter and frustrated, and i\'m sorry. these guys are all phenomenal musicians and i love their music, but i\'ve got to admit - having no chance to see them really lessens the intensity and urgency of my listening and proselytizing. and i\'m sure i can\'t be the only person to be experiencing this. i liked phish during their hiatuses but i barely ever listened to them and didn\'t bother trying to get other people excited about them unless i was feeling nostalgic at that moment. why? because i couldn\'t see them anymore, so why bother maintaining excitement for a band i can\'t actually see? especially when there\'s so many other bands that are willing to give me a chance to experience them live.

i fervently hope they can figure out whatever it takes for them to keep going and getting bigger, so that this issue stops being an issue. but, this is the music business. and while the music has always been great, the business side never really has been...

[NickNels]

I don\'t think I have much to add to this conversation, but I will chime in.

I\'m sure the band meant Ken\'s video recordings when it refered to not giving the music away for free.  A lot of the video recordings I have seen are high quality and the kind of stuff that a lot of bands will put a price tag on and sell.  I am all for the Breakfast charging for that material.

In regards to the AUD recordings, I would be surprised/shocked if the band wanted to stop that.  All the members of the band are very familiar with the scene and the value of having free audio recordings available for download.  Free advertising and the band knows it.  Audience recordings will always be available for free.

I completely support the idea of a HQ download being available for sale.  That being said, if the band is going to do it, they can\'t half-ass it.  These have to be legitimate sbd or matrix recordings that are touched up, mastered, and professionally done.  Doing something like this could be a huge boon for the breakfast.  I\'ve always been under the opinion that a few really HQ downloads are better marketing than a ton of free audience recordings (w/ all due respect to the amazing recordings and work that come from the B\'fast tapers).

So bottom line, I support charging for HQ video and aud recordings, but there is no middle ground.  This needs to be an all or nothing thing.  No room to cheap out or this will be a failed endevour.  And I look forward to always having the audience recordings available on archive or bt for free download.

[cannontrip]

I don\'t think I have much to add to this conversation, but I will chime in.

I\'m sure the band meant Ken\'s video recordings when it refered to not giving the music away for free.  A lot of the video recordings I have seen are high quality and the kind of stuff that a lot of bands will put a price tag on and sell.  I am all for the Breakfast charging for that material.

In regards to the AUD recordings, I would be surprised/shocked if the band wanted to stop that.  All the members of the band are very familiar with the scene and the value of having free audio recordings available for download.  Free advertising and the band knows it.  Audience recordings will always be available for free.

I completely support the idea of a HQ download being available for sale.  That being said, if the band is going to do it, they can\'t half-ass it.  These have to be legitimate sbd or matrix recordings that are touched up, mastered, and professionally done.  Doing something like this could be a huge boon for the breakfast.  I\'ve always been under the opinion that a few really HQ downloads are better marketing than a ton of free audience recordings (w/ all due respect to the amazing recordings and work that come from the B\'fast tapers).

So bottom line, I support charging for HQ video and aud recordings, but there is no middle ground.  This needs to be an all or nothing thing.  No room to cheap out or this will be a failed endevour.  And I look forward to always having the audience recordings available on archive or bt for free download.

that is a perfect post

[ds673488]

I don\'t think I have much to add to this conversation, but I will chime in.

I\'m sure the band meant Ken\'s video recordings when it refered to not giving the music away for free.  A lot of the video recordings I have seen are high quality and the kind of stuff that a lot of bands will put a price tag on and sell.  I am all for the Breakfast charging for that material.

In regards to the AUD recordings, I would be surprised/shocked if the band wanted to stop that.  All the members of the band are very familiar with the scene and the value of having free audio recordings available for download.  Free advertising and the band knows it.  Audience recordings will always be available for free.

I completely support the idea of a HQ download being available for sale.  That being said, if the band is going to do it, they can\'t half-ass it.  These have to be legitimate sbd or matrix recordings that are touched up, mastered, and professionally done.  Doing something like this could be a huge boon for the breakfast.  I\'ve always been under the opinion that a few really HQ downloads are better marketing than a ton of free audience recordings (w/ all due respect to the amazing recordings and work that come from the B\'fast tapers).

So bottom line, I support charging for HQ video and aud recordings, but there is no middle ground.  This needs to be an all or nothing thing.  No room to cheap out or this will be a failed endevour.  And I look forward to always having the audience recordings available on archive or bt for free download.

i pretty much agree with you, nick.
Dave Peck, Ken, and Matt V should all get a percentage of profits, as they have been working tirelessly for a long time for no pay to get us audio and video recordings.

[ChrisF]

this thread shouldnt even have been started unless a band member wanted to make an official statement. especially since the current taping policy is not even being enforced - which allows audience recordings only and no unauthorized video recording or soundboard patches.



"Taping Policy

http://www.thebreakfast.net/content.php?music=taping

The Breakfast Taping Policy

The Breakfast encourages the taping and trading of our live performances. We feel that each show is unique and want to extend the ability to our fans to recreate the live experience long after the show ends.

Audience Taping is permitted at almost all The Breakfast shows. When The Breakfast is performing at a festival or other events featuring multiple bands, that particular event\'s policy may override The Breakfast\'s customary taping policy. When The Breakfast is opening for another artist, that particular artist\'s policy may override The Breakfast\'s customary taping policy. All taping is limited to audience taping only. No soundboard patches will be given. No video will be allowed ever. Still photography without flash is allowed and encouraged at all The Breakfast shows.

All participants in audio recording exchange (regardless of format) acknowledge and respect the copyrights and exclusive ownership of the music and performances by the performers, writers and publishers. All taping must be for personal use only, which may include trading (via analog or digital tape, CD, or digital file transfer). Recordings may be traded only for an equivalent amount of similar media (cassettes or CDs, pre-recorded or blank). In no case may any officially released The Breakfast recording (live or studio) be duplicated or otherwise traded or offered.

All Audience Taping at The Breakfast concerts is authorized for non-commercial purposes only. Unauthorized sale, duplication and / or distribution are strictly forbidden. All The Breakfast\'s performances and recordings are the exclusive property of The Breakfast. All rights reserved. The rights to record The Breakfast performances set forth in this policy constitute and express, revocable license. We reserve the right to withdraw our sanction of recording, tape trading and / or non-commercial digital audio file transfers on a case specific basis or in general, as we deem necessary. No waiver of any copyright or trademark right is intended.

The enjoyment our audience in attendance at a The Breakfast concert is always our first and foremost comment."

[bdfreetuna]

When I talked to Matt V @ Providence it sounded like it was just going to be his matrix recordings that were no longer going to be free.

So we can still stealth audience recordings all we want. I have my Zoom H4N and will start getting serious about using it. Any of you capable of doing the same, I hope you do.

Still, IMO and from a marketing standpoint, this is a mistake. All it\'s doing is predictably alienating the fans... many of which have stuck by this band for upwards of a decade. An official statement would have been nice to clear any of this up, but whatever. We can still take audience recordings. Pretty sure my Zoom H4N audience recordings will sound damn good.. maybe not quite a matrix but I have plenty of Breakfast AUDs that sound great so it\'s not as big a loss as many of you think.

The loss is, that we probably won\'t get to hear a lot of Matt V\'s matrix recordings which have always sounded amazing... and who knows if most of these will ever even see the light of day.

So. Bring your tape rigs kids. And remind me to do so as well. peace