Thread for the Administration Elect

[inthewhitelodge]

thanks!

one last question, though. if you acknowledge that with more than one black candidate the percentage of black voters going for one of them would drop, why is this still an issue for you? it is a one-time anamoly. if colin powell had won the facist nomination, do you still think 95% of the demographic would have gone for obama? if not, then what\'s the problem? i guess that\'s the part i don\'t get. this was the exception rather than the rule....

jking, I hope you find this discussion as friendly as I intend it to be; it\'s nothing personal.

Let\'s remove race/ethnicity/gender/class from the issue for a second. I guess my base fear is that the "uninformed voter" is becoming even more powerful. I used the 95% in this case because it was the most staggering statistic, but there are other things that fuel my concern as well. Think about the voters who were 10 years old in 2000. They have grown up hearing nothing by Bush/facist bashing and, in most cases, not caring about the issues. Those 10 year olds are 18 and wanted to show their adulthood by voting. Who are they going to vote for? The black guy that everybody seems to like or the guy who the television said is just like George Bush? Let\'s also forget the people who were voting "to be a part of history": the bandwagon fans of the politics.

To put a point on it (after five hours and way too many words): I am happy that Obama was elected, and I think he was the better choice than McCain. I just don\'t think that is WHY he was elected, and that worries me. I hope you\'re right about this election being the exception rather than the rule in this respect, because it feels like the "popularity contest" aspect of the election got a little out of control.

This issue is the precise reason I posted such a long rant about Conservatives vs. neoconservatives, and the fact that the media did not focus on any other parties. Popularity has an agenda too. We do have a basis to question why this happened. I just hope if we plan on spending, we don\'t fund war and focus on our own country which is certainly suffering.

[gitCHu ONe.]

I wish someone forced me to perform community service in my late teens.  I believe it would have helped to focus me before heading off to college.  I think it would have made a big difference.  I don\'t believe that kids coming of age since the draft was done away with understand the meaning of self sacrifice, and I believe it shows in the morals of our society.

It makes me think of that "Myspace Toolbox" thread.  So many kids, young adults and even those that have reached middle age are self obsessed, materialistic, and overly concerned with self gratification.  1 or 2 years of community service (working in a soup kitchen, animal shelter, welfare house, military service, or public works project) could really change someone\'s life.

Just my personal soapbox moment.

I agree with you and would hope it would be true. But, really I don\'t think it is true. My step daughter spends summers with her father and has volunteered for the last 3 years at a nursing home doing all kinds of odd jobs. from bringing books to the old folks, or just visiting with them, to running a cash register in the gift shop. While she was involved in it she was getting the benefits of doing a selfless act. However, now that she is not doing this everyday the materialistic, self obsessed thing is coming around. I think it probably has to do with just the not-fully-formed brains of adolescents. Needing stimulation at all times, one thing can easily take over the other. It\'s still too close to call if her volunteering will help her later in life. I really hope it does, but as of now, though she is not one herself, she\'d think those jackasses in the MySpace Toolbox thread were cool/hot.

Don\'t have kids. If you already have them, or you want to have them, just remember that they may be special to you, but they are not special. You\'ll see that 99% of them share a single mindset to achieve acceptance and popularity. Not until they release this will they actually come into their own and be unique. If you don\'t think that\'s true, then tell me why there can be 1000 "coming-of-age" movies, and shows on Mtv like "Sex: With Mom and Dad" aimed at teens, coming out every year. It gives them their goals and some obscure "path". It\'s all f\'d in my opinion. But I\'m living it.

[jking]

nothing personal taken! i love a good discussion.

if anything, i\'d say his blackness only played a significant part to the black community. i can ramble off dozens of rep\'s that i\'ve talked to who are fine with obama being elected for the historical aspect, but who didn\'t vote for him due to policy matters. conversely, i haven\'t spoken to a single white dem who voted for obama because he was black. if history was the only voting motivation, why didn\'t all women vote facist so we could have the first female vice president? there\'s more women than blacks, so by your calculations (or rather, as i understand you) palin voters should have given the election to mccain.

i think all elections come down to popularity contests among the uniformed, frankly. i like to think (maybe a bit to sanguinely) that after hearing 8 years of fear mongering and divisive rhetoric, that everyone had finally had enough - dems, reps, inds, and even (and hopefully mostly) first time voters. the reason obama did so well, is because he ran a consistent, on-message campaign. he never let himself be dragged into the unimportant, emotional issues. people calling for him to be lynched? not worthy of a response. people focusing on a guy he met two or three times ten years ago? not worth the time to show the people mccain has had the same level of interaction with, who aren\'t/weren\'t angels. people saying that acorn was committing voter fraud? not enough time to explain voter fraud, nor was there enough to show mccain\'s support of them over the years. what did he have time to talk about? the economy. the war. health care. education. the issues. he maintained an even-headed, eloquent discourse that, i believe, the country found refreshing after 8 years of a yokel who can\'t form coherent, grammatically correct sentences.

but even in an election like this one, where the candidates stood very clearly on separate sides of most of the issues, there were still undecideds. mccain sealed up the nomination in what, march? obama had the upperhand since may. and yet people still had no clue which they were gonna choose? well, that\'s the evry definition of uninformed voter, right there! and yet, every election year, that\'s who gets the most attention. i\'d love to see only the issues matter and for us to have a reasonable discourse about those policies, but until people stop being swayed by inflammatory words and heart string issues (say no to tax increases for mandatory abortions for gay stem cells!), i don\'t hold out much hope....

as for the third party issue~ once they statr picking halfway decent candidates with platforms that resonate with a majority of voters, then they are marginalizing themselves! the choice of bobb barr for the LP just shows how clueless and out of touch they are. apparently, they\'d rather have someone who is vilified by both the right and left than a candidate who might actually be able to increase their percentage of the vote, and thus get them some political validity. and, since nader came in tops of the 3rd party folks, i can say i\'m right about that. there were rep\'s who weren\'t happy with mccain (or palin) and dems who weren\'t happy with obama and yet the LP still couldn\'t attract them. time for them to stop complaining about being ignored and start making moves to make themselves relevant for a change!

[inthewhitelodge]

I wish someone forced me to perform community service in my late teens.  I believe it would have helped to focus me before heading off to college.  I think it would have made a big difference.  I don\'t believe that kids coming of age since the draft was done away with understand the meaning of self sacrifice, and I believe it shows in the morals of our society.

It makes me think of that "Myspace Toolbox" thread.  So many kids, young adults and even those that have reached middle age are self obsessed, materialistic, and overly concerned with self gratification.  1 or 2 years of community service (working in a soup kitchen, animal shelter, welfare house, military service, or public works project) could really change someone\'s life.

Just my personal soapbox moment.

I agree with you and would hope it would be true. But, really I don\'t think it is true. My step daughter spends summers with her father and has volunteered for the last 3 years at a nursing home doing all kinds of odd jobs. from bringing books to the old folks, or just visiting with them, to running a cash register in the gift shop. While she was involved in it she was getting the benefits of doing a selfless act. However, now that she is not doing this everyday the materialistic, self obsessed thing is coming around. I think it probably has to do with just the not-fully-formed brains of adolescents. Needing stimulation at all times, one thing can easily take over the other. It\'s still too close to call if her volunteering will help her later in life. I really hope it does, but as of now, though she is not one herself, she\'d think those jackasses in the MySpace Toolbox thread were cool/hot.

Don\'t have kids. If you already have them, or you want to have them, just remember that they may be special to you, but they are not special. You\'ll see that 99% of them share a single mindset to achieve acceptance and popularity. Not until they release this will they actually come into their own and be unique. If you don\'t think that\'s true, then tell me why there can be 1000 "coming-of-age" movies, and shows on Mtv like "Sex: With Mom and Dad" aimed at teens, coming out every year. It gives them their goals and some obscure "path". It\'s all f\'d in my opinion. But I\'m living it.

Oh goodness, I cannot wait to have kids! Educating them is the best part of it; parents have a responsibility to help children through this crazy world. It\'s not the teacher\'s job or the community program\'s job, or the media\'s job to sell us "stuff we need". I will likely homeschool my kids, and in that sense, their life is their curriculum. Books will take precedence over watching tv shows. Playing in the dirt and forest will reign over playing with plastic lead-dyed toys. That\'s not to say that children should be protected from all of that stuff, because without some sort of exposure they may get "girls gone wild" on us. lol I personally think that children\'s media exposure without monitoring or supervision/reflection is a huge culprit of  brat-like behavior.

[Yoda]

Don\'t have kids. If you already have them, or you want to have them, just remember that they may be special to you, but they are not special.

That comment is really ass backwards.  With your warped vision of children and life, I really hope that you don\'t have any.  All children are special; not just to their parents or family, but to the community and world itself.  A person doesn\'t have to be a unique or different from everyone else in order to be special.  

Your comment is seriously F\'d up on so many levels that I\'m not going to waste my time writing anything more.

[gitCHu ONe.]

Don\'t have kids. If you already have them, or you want to have them, just remember that they may be special to you, but they are not special.

That comment is really ass backwards.  With your warped vision of children and life, I really hope that you don\'t have any.  All children are special; not just to their parents or family, but to the community and world itself.  A person doesn\'t have to be a unique or different from everyone else in order to be special.  

Your comment is seriously F\'d up on so many levels that I\'m not going to waste my time writing anything more.

Wow. That\'s exactly the mentality that makes my point valid. To your parents, you were/are their special little angel right? And exactly how special are you now? Probably not very. If you think you are then you either need to get checked, or you may be the exception. note: you is being used as the metaphorical you.

I\'m not really putting parenting down. Sure we need to further the existence of human-kind. great. I\'m all for it. The second part of my comment you quoted is a generalization. I have crazy love for my bfam for sure, and I would love to have you all as my personal friends. Thus, I would love to see any and all of you take control of the population. But in the generalization, there are going to be far more people having kids that fall out of the range of what you/us would consider good for our kids. Does that make better sense of my babble?

Much love.

[wildcoyote]

spe⋅cial   /ˈspɛʃəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation  [spesh-uhl]  

–adjective
1. of a distinct or particular kind or character: a special kind of key.  
2. being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain: You\'d better call the special number.  
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.; distinctive; unique: the special features of a plan.  
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.: a special messenger.  
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual: a special occasion; to fix something special.  
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree; especial: special importance.  
7. being such in an exceptional degree; particularly valued: a special friend.

[tyzack]

spe⋅cial   /ˈspɛʃəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation  [spesh-uhl]  

–adjective
1. of a distinct or particular kind or character: a special kind of key.  
2. being a particular one; particular, individual, or certain: You\'d better call the special number.  
3. pertaining or peculiar to a particular person, thing, instance, etc.; distinctive; unique: the special features of a plan.  
4. having a specific or particular function, purpose, etc.: a special messenger.  
5. distinguished or different from what is ordinary or usual: a special occasion; to fix something special.  
6. extraordinary; exceptional, as in amount or degree; especial: special importance.  
7. being such in an exceptional degree; particularly valued: a special friend.

Every human - alive, dead, yet to be born, is special.

Therefore all children are special.

I agree with [inthewhitelodge] that i can\'t wait to have kids. How do you change the world? Exert your influence on those around you. Who do you have the most influence on? Your children. Do you want the world not to see race as any more importance than the color of a persons eyes? Teach your kids that. Do you want to teach your kids that working for the betterment of the people who are important to you is more pleasureable and rewarding than love of money? Teach your kids that. Do you you think that people should think for themselves, create their own boundaires and experinces? I would suggest a sand box in the summer and legos in the winter. Kids\' minds are much more creative than anything they will ever experince watching on TV or playing in a video game.

...and, at the very least, children will eventually be tax payers. Someone has to pay for us when we are old.

[Yoda]

Wow. That\'s exactly the mentality that makes my point valid. To your parents, you were/are their special little angel right? And exactly how special are you now? Probably not very. If you think you are then you either need to get checked, or you may be the exception. note: you is being used as the metaphorical you.

I\'m not really putting parenting down. Sure we need to further the existence of human-kind. great. I\'m all for it. The second part of my comment you quoted is a generalization. I have crazy love for my bfam for sure, and I would love to have you all as my personal friends. Thus, I would love to see any and all of you take control of the population. But in the generalization, there are going to be far more people having kids that fall out of the range of what you/us would consider good for our kids. Does that make better sense of my babble?

Much love.

So by your logic, I should be telling my daughter that she\'s nothing and that she\'s not going to amount to little more than following the flock.  It\'s that kind of mindset that breeds the little Charlie Mansons of the world.  Seriously, do us all a favor and don\'t go out ridig bareback; it\'ll be better for my daughter who is special and all the other children of people on this board whom they think are special.

[kindm's]

thanks!

one last question, though. if you acknowledge that with more than one black candidate the percentage of black voters going for one of them would drop, why is this still an issue for you? it is a one-time anamoly. if colin powell had won the facist nomination, do you still think 95% of the demographic would have gone for obama? if not, then what\'s the problem? i guess that\'s the part i don\'t get. this was the exception rather than the rule....

jking, I hope you find this discussion as friendly as I intend it to be; it\'s nothing personal.

Let\'s remove race/ethnicity/gender/class from the issue for a second. I guess my base fear is that the "uninformed voter" is becoming even more powerful. I used the 95% in this case because it was the most staggering statistic, but there are other things that fuel my concern as well. Think about the voters who were 10 years old in 2000. They have grown up hearing nothing by Bush/facist bashing and, in most cases, not caring about the issues. Those 10 year olds are 18 and wanted to show their adulthood by voting. Who are they going to vote for? The black guy that everybody seems to like or the guy who the television said is just like George Bush? Let\'s also forget the people who were voting "to be a part of history": the bandwagon fans of the politics.

To put a point on it (after five hours and way too many words): I am happy that Obama was elected, and I think he was the better choice than McCain. I just don\'t think that is WHY he was elected, and that worries me. I hope you\'re right about this election being the exception rather than the rule in this respect, because it feels like the "popularity contest" aspect of the election got a little out of control.

I definitely take exception to your kids born in 2000 example. They have not grown up hearing only bashing. It all depends on who their parents are. The likes of Fox News, Limbaugh, Hannity, O\'Reilly, Malkin, Coulter etc etc etc are anything but Bush bashers. There are apologists everywhere. And don\'t forget that following 09/11/2001 Bush had the highest approval ratings ever! That is why roughly %48 of voters voted facist this go around.

Do you pay attention to politics at all ? What you describe is standard operating procedure.

Americans are by and large uninformed. They do not spend the time to get to know the policies of each candidate, they don\'t pay attention to this stuff at all really. If they did the propaganda, innuendo and outright lies from either party would carry no weight.

Your Post is basically elitist in nature. Your saying your happy Obama won the election but you are questioning every persons reason for voting for him except yours. You voted for him because you are informed and know X,Y,Z but everyone else who voted for him and especially black people don\'t know shyte and that scares you. Young voters only voted for him because he was popular etc etc etc.

And lets keep some perspective here. Black people only make up about 13.4% of total US population.

[kindm's]

Wow. That\'s exactly the mentality that makes my point valid. To your parents, you were/are their special little angel right? And exactly how special are you now? Probably not very. If you think you are then you either need to get checked, or you may be the exception. note: you is being used as the metaphorical you.

I\'m not really putting parenting down. Sure we need to further the existence of human-kind. great. I\'m all for it. The second part of my comment you quoted is a generalization. I have crazy love for my bfam for sure, and I would love to have you all as my personal friends. Thus, I would love to see any and all of you take control of the population. But in the generalization, there are going to be far more people having kids that fall out of the range of what you/us would consider good for our kids. Does that make better sense of my babble?

Much love.

So by your logic, I should be telling my daughter that she\'s nothing and that she\'s not going to amount to little more than following the flock.  It\'s that kind of mindset that breeds the little Charlie Mansons of the world.  Seriously, do us all a favor and don\'t go out ridig bareback; it\'ll be better for my daughter who is special and all the other children of people on this board whom they think are special.

Actually Charlie Manson was probably told he was special and was going to do great things. And he proved them correct.

[FrankZappa]

[gitCHu ONe.]

Wow. That\'s exactly the mentality that makes my point valid. To your parents, you were/are their special little angel right? And exactly how special are you now? Probably not very. If you think you are then you either need to get checked, or you may be the exception. note: you is being used as the metaphorical you.

I\'m not really putting parenting down. Sure we need to further the existence of human-kind. great. I\'m all for it. The second part of my comment you quoted is a generalization. I have crazy love for my bfam for sure, and I would love to have you all as my personal friends. Thus, I would love to see any and all of you take control of the population. But in the generalization, there are going to be far more people having kids that fall out of the range of what you/us would consider good for our kids. Does that make better sense of my babble?

Much love.

So by your logic, I should be telling my daughter that she\'s nothing and that she\'s not going to amount to little more than following the flock.  It\'s that kind of mindset that breeds the little Charlie Mansons of the world.  Seriously, do us all a favor and don\'t go out ridig bareback; it\'ll be better for my daughter who is special and all the other children of people on this board whom they think are special.

Actually Charlie Manson was probably told he was special and was going to do great things. And he proved them correct.

You know...? I think you\'re right.

Yoda... you will see when your daughter grows up that there is a 50/50 chance that she\'ll maintain your ideals and will be the spitting image of what you have imagined her to be/become, or she\'ll either decide (as mine has at 15) or she\'ll react to rebel in some way. As far as I can tell and have read, it is purely chemical in their minds that they must do something at this "coming-of-age" time. That\'s why it is so easy for the media to present movies, music, and tv shows staging these exact events. If you let your kid watch it or not, it is ingrained in them anyway. They like that media because they feel they can relate to it.

Now, I do have a kid, she\'s 15. On the night of her 13th birthday we saw the change. I don\'t know how it worked out that way, but the hormones were in full flow. Until this point she was the sweetest, mature, kind, obedient child you have ever seen. Granted she still is very sweet, but something in her, even though she knew/knows better, her rebellious side has come out. She went from all As and Bs in school to Fs and Ds. She is constantly trying to lie and get away with very trivial things. Giving us excuses that we\'ve heard/used before and thinking (as we did at the time) that they will work. Needless to say, she\'s a handful. Still we love her very much and continue to try to give her our opinions on different aspects of life, it\'s now just getting to the point where she has to make her own decisions based on what she has learned... at least we hope that\'s how she makes these decisions.

So my point was to get to this anyway. As a warning almost of something to be aware of. This can and more than likely will happen, no matter how you bring your kid up and how "strict" you are.

[jocelyn]

From Obama\'s plan:

II. INTEGRATE SERVICE INTO EDUCATION  
Barack Obama calls his years working as a community organizer in Chicago’s South Side the best education he
ever had. He believes that all students should serve their communities. Studies show that students who
participate in service-learning programs do better in school, are more likely to graduate high school and go to
college, and are more likely to become active, engaged citizens. Schools that require service as part of the
educational experience create improved learning environments and serve as resources for their communities.
The Obama-Biden plan sets a goal for all students to engage in service, with middle and high school students
performing 50 hours of service each year, and college students performing 100 hours of service each year.
Under this plan, students would graduate college with as many as 17 weeks of public service experience under
their belts.  
Expand Service-Learning in Our Nation’s Schools: In November, Barack Obama laid out a comprehensive
plan to provide all Americans with a world-class education and give our schools a substantial infusion of funds
to support teachers and principals and improve student learning. That plan conditions that assistance on school
districts developing programs to engage students in service opportunities. Obama and Biden believe that middle
and high school students should be expected to engage in community service for 50 hours annually during the
school year or summer months. They will develop national guidelines for service-learning and community
service programs, and will give schools better tools both to develop successful programs and to document the
experience of students at all levels. They will encourage programs that engage with community partners to
expand opportunities for community service and service-learning opportunities, so that students can apply what
they learn in the classroom to authentic situations that help the community. These programs will also involve
citizens from the community engaging students in service opportunities through the Classroom Corps

There is no "incentive" here, no tax credit, this is mandatory. So really, jking, fucking bite me.

You guys are really ok with the government overseeing stuff like this? What happens when it\'s being run by an administration that you don\'t like? Would you want John McCain making these decisions for you? Deciding what programs are worthy, deciding who you should be volunteering for? You want to be given a list of which nonprofits qualify? Given incentive for certain volunteer work, but if you spent 8 hours a day working your own charity, picking up trash, whatever whatever, that\'s not good enough?

Don\'t you think the government is big enough already, that it meddles in your affairs plenty?

[Yoda]

Wow. That\'s exactly the mentality that makes my point valid. To your parents, you were/are their special little angel right? And exactly how special are you now? Probably not very. If you think you are then you either need to get checked, or you may be the exception. note: you is being used as the metaphorical you.

I\'m not really putting parenting down. Sure we need to further the existence of human-kind. great. I\'m all for it. The second part of my comment you quoted is a generalization. I have crazy love for my bfam for sure, and I would love to have you all as my personal friends. Thus, I would love to see any and all of you take control of the population. But in the generalization, there are going to be far more people having kids that fall out of the range of what you/us would consider good for our kids. Does that make better sense of my babble?

Much love.

So by your logic, I should be telling my daughter that she\'s nothing and that she\'s not going to amount to little more than following the flock.  It\'s that kind of mindset that breeds the little Charlie Mansons of the world.  Seriously, do us all a favor and don\'t go out ridig bareback; it\'ll be better for my daughter who is special and all the other children of people on this board whom they think are special.

Actually Charlie Manson was probably told he was special and was going to do great things. And he proved them correct.

You know...? I think you\'re right.

Yoda... you will see when your daughter grows up that there is a 50/50 chance that she\'ll maintain your ideals and will be the spitting image of what you have imagined her to be/become, or she\'ll either decide (as mine has at 15) or she\'ll react to rebel in some way. As far as I can tell and have read, it is purely chemical in their minds that they must do something at this "coming-of-age" time. That\'s why it is so easy for the media to present movies, music, and tv shows staging these exact events. If you let your kid watch it or not, it is ingrained in them anyway. They like that media because they feel they can relate to it.

Now, I do have a kid, she\'s 15. On the night of her 13th birthday we saw the change. I don\'t know how it worked out that way, but the hormones were in full flow. Until this point she was the sweetest, mature, kind, obedient child you have ever seen. Granted she still is very sweet, but something in her, even though she knew/knows better, her rebellious side has come out. She went from all As and Bs in school to Fs and Ds. She is constantly trying to lie and get away with very trivial things. Giving us excuses that we\'ve heard/used before and thinking (as we did at the time) that they will work. Needless to say, she\'s a handful. Still we love her very much and continue to try to give her our opinions on different aspects of life, it\'s now just getting to the point where she has to make her own decisions based on what she has learned... at least we hope that\'s how she makes these decisions.

So my point was to get to this anyway. As a warning almost of something to be aware of. This can and more than likely will happen, no matter how you bring your kid up and how "strict" you are.

:no: and says goodbye to the thread.