Author Topic: 2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread  (Read 15565 times)

Yoda

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #120 on: April 08, 2009, 12:12:16 pm »
Quote from: zuke583;225799
Quote from: NickNels;225796
If Calhoun retires does Geno Auriema take over the men\'s program?

I never thought about it until now, but I guess it makes sense.  I personally would be fine with it.  He would have to adapt his coaching strategy, but he already does that from year to year with the women\'s team depending on the talent.

My only concern would be iin regards to recruiting.  Can he continue to bring in the top tier talent like Calhoun has?


NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

terrible idea. that\'s like saying that i\'m good at playing madden \'09 so i could coach in the nfl. totally different worlds. you never though about it before because it\'s an awful idea. really really terrible idea. if this happens i will not watch uconn play until they fire him, which would take about 2 seasons


I don\'t see this as a real issue at all.  He may be coaching the women\'s team (and unfortunately I\'ve watched a couple games when nothing is on), but they seem to be more rooted in fundamentals than the guys.  If he could apply those fundamentals as a base and work in some of the ego-centric all-about-me bullshit style that goes on on the guys side and the nba, that might be a good combo...
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NickNels

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #121 on: April 08, 2009, 12:39:37 pm »
Quote from: zuke583;225799
terrible idea. that\'s like saying that i\'m good at playing madden \'09 so i could coach in the nfl.

C\'mon dude...it\'s still basketball.  The same principles that went into creating 6 championships for him in the women\'s game still largely applies to the men.  1. Recruit the best and most athletic talent.  2. Formulate an effective coaching strategy that utilizes said talent.  THe most important part of college basketball (men\'s or women\'s) is assembling the team to put on the court.  

The reason the UCONN women\'s team won this year isn\'t because Geno is a coaching genius, it\'s because he has players like Maya Moore and Tina Charles playing for him.  It was the same thing with the Taurasi and Lobo teams before that.  Tennesee women did the same thing with Candice parker.  In the men\'s game its the same thing.  That NC team is stacked.  If you put Hansboro, Ellington, and Lawson out there I don\'t care who the coach is, you stand a good shot at winning it all.  Look at how much Blake Griffin meant to Oklahoma...that team is terrible without him, but they still made it to the Final 4.

It\'s the same thing in the pros.  THe celtics and the Yankees are teams that are meant to win with their talent.  You think Torre or Rivers are amazing coach\'s?  No, their teams are stacked.  They are meant to win in the long run.  82 games or 162 games...in the long run they should be able to outlast with their talent.  It will be the same thing with Geno and the men\'s program.  As long as they continue to recruit well they should continue to win 20+ games every season.  Now if you want to argue coaching in a single Championship game scenario, maybe you have a case.

Bottom line it comes down to whether or not you think AUriema could continue to recruit the way Calhoun has.

Quote from: Yoda;225801
I don\'t see this as a real issue at all.  He may be coaching the women\'s team (and unfortunately I\'ve watched a couple games when nothing is on), but they seem to be more rooted in fundamentals than the guys.  If he could apply those fundamentals as a base and work in some of the ego-centric all-about-me bullshit style that goes on on the guys side and the nba, that might be a good combo...

Yoda, what you\'ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 12:40:33 pm by NickNels »
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Yoda

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #122 on: April 08, 2009, 12:45:19 pm »
Quote from: NickNels;225803
Yoda, what you\'ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


Thank you sir, may I have another... :asskicked
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zuke583

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #123 on: April 08, 2009, 01:07:42 pm »
Quote from: NickNels;225803
Quote from: zuke583;225799
terrible idea. that\'s like saying that i\'m good at playing madden \'09 so i could coach in the nfl.


C\'mon dude...it\'s still basketball.  The same principles that went into creating 6 championships for him in the women\'s game still largely applies to the men.  1. Recruit the best and most athletic talent.  2. Formulate an effective coaching strategy that utilizes said talent.  THe most important part of college basketball (men\'s or women\'s) is assembling the team to put on the court.


a) the best recruits in the women\'s game go to uconn or UT...why would they go anywhere else? those are the only two "relevant" women\'s programs (i use the term "relevant" very loosely). plus, there\'s an enourmous rift between the cream of the crop and the rest of the players, which means that uconn and UT are perenially superpowers...there\'s very little parity in the game which means that...

b) coaching is less important in the women\'s game. geno can slide by with his super powered she-men using much less strategy than the men\'s game, where talent alone rarely means success. UNC is talented, but without good coaching, they would not have had as much success as they have.

c) geno\'s not used to utilizing the talent/athleticism he would see in the men\'s game. he\'s used to a slower game that depends more on fundamentals. coaching a men\'s team in the ivy league or DII might be more his style.

Quote from: NickNels;225803
The reason the UCONN women\'s team won this year isn\'t because Geno is a coaching genius, it\'s because he has players like Maya Moore and Tina Charles playing for him.  It was the same thing with the Taurasi and Lobo teams before that.  Tennesee women did the same thing with Candice parker.


all true...and proves my points for me

Quote from: NickNels;225803
In the men\'s game its the same thing.  That NC team is stacked.  If you put Hansboro, Ellington, and Lawson out there I don\'t care who the coach is, you stand a good shot at winning it all.  Look at how much Blake Griffin meant to Oklahoma...that team is terrible without him, but they still made it to the Final 4.


and look at how much stephan curry helped out davidson. and how much jodie meeks helped out kentucky (who fired their coach because he sucks).

Quote from: NickNels;225803
It\'s the same thing in the pros.  THe celtics and the Yankees are teams that are meant to win with their talent.  You think Torre or Rivers are amazing coach\'s?  No, their teams are stacked.  They are meant to win in the long run.  82 games or 162 games...in the long run they should be able to outlast with their talent.  It will be the same thing with Geno and the men\'s program.  As long as they continue to recruit well they should continue to win 20+ games every season.  Now if you want to argue coaching in a single Championship game scenario, maybe you have a case.


a) Torre\'s best teams were not stacked. they featured scott brosious, bernie williams, paul o\'neill, et al. good players, to be sure...but not great.  if you remember correctly, since the yankees  have been "stacking" their team, they haven\'t done jack shit.

b) in the NBA, talent usually does win out. there are rarely ever any surprises. coaches only have to be good enough to not lose. i have no gripe there. but the NBA is not college basketball. what\'s true for one sport is not true for another even if "it\'s still basketball"

Quote from: NickNels;225803
Bottom line it comes down to whether or not you think AUriema could continue to recruit the way Calhoun has.


clearly, i don\'t. nor do i think he has the talent. plus i heard he\'s an even bigger asshole than calhoun
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skalnbyc

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #124 on: April 08, 2009, 01:12:39 pm »
I really don\'t watch or follow sports too closely but I have to say that Calhoun has an obnoxious meathead voice.
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Yoda

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #125 on: April 08, 2009, 01:19:46 pm »
Quote from: alexanderzurflu;225808
I really don\'t watch or follow sports too closely but I have to say that Calhoun has an obnoxious meathead voice.


And an annoying Mass. accent...
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skalnbyc

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #126 on: April 08, 2009, 01:24:51 pm »
Quote from: Yoda;225809
Quote from: alexanderzurflu;225808
I really don\'t watch or follow sports too closely but I have to say that Calhoun has an obnoxious meathead voice.


And an annoying Mass. accent...


That is basically what I\'m saying.
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NickNels

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #127 on: April 08, 2009, 01:45:51 pm »
Alright Zuke...i\'m not going to bother bringing down all the quotes, but I\'ll address what you brought up.

It seems that you are on the same page as far as talent is concerned.  The most talented teams (men or women) are more likely to win.  Yes, Geno has access to "the cream of the crop" at CT...same w/ Tenn.  That is the power of the UCONN program which he built himself.  I don\'t know how you can fault him there.  NOw, if you don\'t think he can compete recruiting-wise with the Pitinos, Williams, Calliperis, and Coach Ks of the world, then fine.  I just don\'t see how you can automatically assume that will be the case.

In regards to UNC.  Yes, they are a well coached team.  Roy Williams is a great coach.  My point is that there is no reason with their talent why they wouldn\'t at least win 20+ games and win a few games in the NCAA tournament even without Williams.  They have enough talent to "outlast" and get there.  It may be the coaching prowess that is needed to beat the top teams like Michigan St. and Villanova, but regardless of the coach they should at least get there each year every year with a talented team.  If you don\'t think Geno can coach on that level, then fine, but he has won 6 National Championships, why not?

Quote
c) geno\'s not used to utilizing the talent/athleticism he would see in the men\'s game. he\'s used to a slower game that depends more on fundamentals. coaching a men\'s team in the ivy league or DII might be more his style.

Zuke, I know you have not watched 15 seconds of UCONN women\'s basketball this year.  Tina Charles and Maya Moore are athletic phenoms...especially CHarles.  They do not play a slow game.  He knows how to utilize that talent.  THey really look more like a Men\'s program than women\'s program.

Quote
and look at how much stephan curry helped out davidson. and how much jodie meeks helped out kentucky (who fired their coach because he sucks).


That is so weak Zuke...don\'t bring that shit.  Stephen Curry is hardly a Blake Griffin and Davidson doesn\'t exactly play in a major conference (Southern Conference).  He is a very good shooter...that\'s about it, much closer to a JJ Reddick.  Griffin is a man-beast that simply outpowers other "kids" at other programs.  Jodi Meeks DOES have the power to take over...and you saw what happened when he does (50+ points).  I question his heart though.  Clearly his head was not in every game.  THere was a lot of games where he was just content to pass off the ball.  I think he had a bad relationship with Guillespe.  When he wants to play he is good enough to carry the team to a win on his own.

Quote
a) Torre\'s best teams were not stacked. they featured scott brosious, bernie williams, paul o\'neill, et al. good players, to be sure...but not great. if you remember correctly, since the yankees have been "stacking" their team, they haven\'t done jack shit.

Correct...but it has been the stacked teams since 2001 that haven\'t won fewer than 94 games (sans 2008 w/ Girardi).  Again, with talent you SHOULD be good enough to at least get there every year.  If you want to talk about winning short series or championship games, that might be a question of coaching.   The Yankees that won from 1996-2000 (san 1997) were a different beast...an exception to the rule.  They had amazing chemistry, kinda like the Pistons team that won the NBA title a few years ago.
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skalnbyc

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #128 on: April 08, 2009, 02:04:54 pm »
College basketball is annoying because the top programs are magnets for the best players and almost always do well each year.  Same stupid teams are on top each year, what a frickin\' thrill.  The coaches at top schools should get credit for refining the raw talent they get, which is often a bunch of otherwise prison-bound idiots who have little interest in education.  I\'m so excited to watch a player who is a total piece of shit off the court, what a hero!
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zuke583

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #129 on: April 08, 2009, 02:05:05 pm »
okay. maybe he could be successful...i hope we never have to find out.  i don\'t think his style would translate well at all.  great success at one level does not guarantee succes at another.  look at the likes of:
rick pitino in the nba
pete carroll in the nfl
mike montgomery in the nba
bill callahan in the nfl
nick saban in the nfl
dennis erickson in the nfl...

the list goes on and on. coaches try to do it every year. there are very few cases of coaches making the leap from a lower level to a higher level (jimmy johnson, larry brown). and don\'t tell me that men\'s basketball isn\'t a higher level than woman\'s. he\'s a good woman\'s coach, i\'ll give him that. comparing women\'s college basketball to men\'s college basketball is like comparing boys high school basketball to men\'s college basketball

any uconn woman player wouldn\'t make the practice squad for the men\'s team. they\'re slower and weaker. they\'re good...for girls. no more. i didn\'t have to watch one second of basketball this season to know that
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SlimPickens

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #130 on: April 08, 2009, 02:05:50 pm »
Zuke, I gotta say, I completely disagree with just about every point you\'ve made in this thread.

Yes, the first choice for all top recruits is UC, Tenn, but there\'s also Rutgers, Cal, and about 10 other schools which compete for those players.  Take a look at the last 2 years McDonald all american squads... 50 best players in the country, and they went to 20 different schools.... Not so different then the Men\'s league.

These girls make their decisions the same way as the men do.  Best school I can go to AND PLAY.  

Lobo has spoken about the coaching mind games Geno played with her... he had her convinced that she was the most over-rated player in the country for her entire championship winning season.  Yes, he gets talented players, but a lot of schools do... it\'s his coaching skills that produces championships.

It all comes down to the fundamentals, the players that shine at that level, men\'s or womens, do so because of the fundementals taught, and put in place by the coaches.  Maya Moore is setting scoring records because Geno built his offense around her.

I\'m not saying that Geno does it all...but I think that they need him as much as he needs them.

NickNels

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #131 on: April 08, 2009, 02:23:16 pm »
I agree with Chaggs, it\'s two prong.  Knowing the X\'s and O\'s combined with knowing how to handle the talent.  

Zuke\'s main problem here is his lack of respect for the women\'s game.  

I have no problem keeping things in house and going with Auriema, unless some blatently obvious alternative is available.
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zuke583

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #132 on: April 08, 2009, 02:29:15 pm »
he\'s a good women\'s coach, i\'m not denying that. but by your logic (both of you) a good coach at a boys\' private high school would be a good fit for men\'s college basketball. you just can\'t make that leap. you have to be able to lead young men...it\'s not all x\'s and o\'s.

i would much rather hire dave leitao than the best woman\'s coach of all time (which geno may be)
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NickNels

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #133 on: April 08, 2009, 02:40:35 pm »
Quote from: zuke583;225823
he\'s a good women\'s coach, i\'m not denying that. but by your logic (both of you) a good coach at a boys\' private high school would be a good fit for men\'s college basketball. you just can\'t make that leap. you have to be able to lead young men...it\'s not all x\'s and o\'s.

i would much rather hire dave leitao than the best woman\'s coach of all time (which geno may be)

Now that is a good point and a logical argument.  Before it was just unabashed hatred for women\'s basketball.  I guess you won\'t know for sure unless it actually happens.  He just seems like someone who would deserve just as much consideration as anyone else for the job.  Arguably the best women\'s coach of all time who coincidently works at the same campus.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 02:48:03 pm by NickNels »
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SlimPickens

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2008-09 Men\'s College Basketball Thread
« Reply #134 on: April 08, 2009, 02:42:38 pm »
Quote from: zuke583;225823
you have to be able to lead young men...it\'s not all x\'s and o\'s.

You don\'t think that Geno could lead young men?  Is that opinion, or based on some deeper knowledge of Geno?