Was anyone else discusted by Bush\'s State of the Union Address Last Night?

[kindm's]

I never mentioned entitlement or free healthcare. Just making the point that in aspects of education we are far behind, as well as technology, as well as offering healthcare to working people.

We are the MOST POWERFUL NATION for 1 reason, our Nuclear stockpile. If you think for a minute the US doesn\'t use its military strenght as a barginig chip when doing business you are kidding yourself. The reason people pay attention to us is our Military and our citizens thirst for PRODUCTS.

And I guess our ideas of a civilizied society are different. I would still prefer to help US citizens, familys in need. I mean to all lifetime abusers of the system I agree with you that they should have toprovide for themselves but I am not above helping people in need. Giving them clothes and shelter, how many victims of fires loose everything. Sure it is easy to turn your back on people in need and say they should have planned better, or they should have had insurance or they should work harder etc etc. I am old enough to know that life isn\'t that cut and dry there are shades of GRAY to everything.


Ever read the story of the Good Summaritan ?

[realisthis]

This is a good thread, enjoyed it.....It\'s good so hopefully people can learn from others viewpoints and understand why people feel a certain way.

[FrankZappa]

Originally posted by Marcial
Think about this.... how did one of the youngest countries (USA) by many hundreds if not thousands of years get to be the wealthiest & most powerful?  Obviously, we are doing something right... and that scares other countries...

Marcial, I agree with (some) of what you say, but check your facts first. A quick history of US wealth:
Colonies: no official income, unless your underselling the millions of natural resources and not telling Great Britain about it. This is the same era where we did things like buying new york state for products worth 60$ dutch.
Revolutionary war: went bankrupted, if it wasn’t for FRANCE, we never would have kept going the first few years.
Post war: States fight amongst themselves, no national finance as of yet set up. Each state has its own currency, each currency made by individual banks. Get too far away from the bank that made the money, and the value dropped bc now the person taking it had to travel that much further away just to get there money. Go too far away (like across state lines) and it’s worthless. Also, thanks to napoleons failing war, which lead to the Louisiana Purchase, and later manifest destiny (GOD wants America to go from coast to coast), our natural resources and farmland grew and grew. Remember, America was originally suppose to only go as far inland as the appalachians, but then lack of space and want of money lead settlers to move into Ohio and take the land from the Indians. Then Ohio wasn\'t enough, then (etc.)
National Lottery: To raise money, a national lottery was created. The drawing was held over by months until enough tickets had been bought. Then a number was drawn that was higher than the last ticket issued. As a result, no winner and the house (government) took it all.
Gold and Civil war: good $$ in northern and southern states coming in as plantations and factories are up and running. Gold found in San fran in 1848, but with the only mint in phili, it takes just as much time to move the gold to mint and put in the economy as it does to get out there from phili to go mine it. A mint is set up in San Fran just in time for war to break out in 1861.
post war: a little better as the money comes in from san fran and the newly discovered gold in alaska in 1896.
ww1: good $$ from war production, but many lives lost.
depression: market crash, no money, no job, prohibition, dust bowls, new deals, ect.
WWII: Finally, here is where our money comes from. Like WW1, we made out good on industry, but ten fold this time. Long before we officially joined, we were supplying the allies with materials from clothes to battleships. After the war, besides still owing us for the goods we gave them, Europe’s economy was in the shiter, and we bailed them out.


So "Obviously, we are doing something right... and that scares other countries." Yea, we stumbled into wealth by accident (twice), and used our vast natural resources (that we stole) to fund the rest of the world. Then we gave them the bill. We also developed nuclear weapons, mostly by making the top german scientist instant americans and having them work with our guys on the Manhattan project after we caught them trying to escape to japan. So, we have the biggest guns, and most of you owe us money. Obviously.

[aJwvof]

Originally posted by Marcial
If I unexpectedly lost my job I would get another job.  It may be flipping burgers, digging ditches, or doing some other type of manual labor, but I would find a job before I would take handouts from the gov.  Every able-bodied person should be working.  And, nothing is wrong with crack babies having shoes... yes, babies need shoes... as long as I\'m not the one paying for them!  I\'ll take care of MY babies, but not everyone elses.... [/B]

everyone says oh yeah i would work at mcdonald\'s blah blah blah and you are full of shit. people call themselves open mind and accepting but only when they benefit from it. those that abuse the system should be dealt with, but why should a crack baby suffer? did they smoke crack? did they ask to be born ? NO it is all about circumstance and what you are born into ... some people are born well off some are not.

you can say go get a job as the easy way out but when the funding for education drops and drops and they put into effect policy no child left behind it doesn\'t help make our society better it actually hurts the schools and more importantly the children and our countries future. how can you get a job if you can\'t read?!

[davepeck]

Originally posted by aJwvof
everyone says oh yeah i would work at mcdonald\'s blah blah blah and you are full of shit. people call themselves open mind and accepting but only when they benefit from it. those that abuse the system should be dealt with, but why should a crack baby suffer? did they smoke crack? did they ask to be born ? NO it is all about circumstance and what you are born into ... some people are born well off some are not.

excellent point, aj.

i\'ve steered clear of this thread to this point, but i was gonna chime in on this, because it got to me.. aj is exactly right about this. a baby cannot help what he or she is born into. sure, you can blame the parents or whoever you want for having a baby in the first place, but once it\'s done, it\'s done. and no child deserves to go uncared for just because their parents were assholes.

my wife is a nurse who works in the newborn intensive care unit at yale. she busts her ass day and night, taking care of sick babies, many of which are what you would call crack babies. where she works, a baby born over 1 pound is considered heavy/lucky, and many (not all) of these babies of these babies are born the way they are because of the behavior of their parents.

so should these babies not be cared for? is it a waste of time for hospitals to take care of crack babies? i sure as hell know that if i were born into abnormal circumstances as a result of stupid parents, i\'d want someone to help me out. these babies/kids need all the help they can get, and it needs to start at a young age. this is the only way for these kids to grow up and not follow in their parents\' footsteps and make crack babies of their own.

\'i don\'t want to do it like my daddy did,
i don\'t want to give it to my baby\'s kid.\'

homophobia: gray, it\'s just not healthy. it\'s no reason to dislike someone. just because you find it disgusting, doesn\'t give you the right to tell other people how to live their lives. public affection is not an excuse either. if you don\'t like it, turn your head. i mean, i hate seeing 2 hot chicks go at it just as much as the next heterosexual male, but i\'m not homophobic. i don\'t like seeing straight couples making out in public either.

in my mind, sexual preference should have nothing to do with politics or religion... but everyone always wants to make it about both. it\'s personal. period. unfortunately, our government believes that all men are not created equal, and gays should be treated differently than heterosexuals.. that i will never understand.

It\'s so hard to face
That in this day and age
Somebody\'s race
Could trigger somebody\'s rage
And somebody\'s preference
Can drive some total stranger
to make somebody, somehow
feel the wrath of their anger

Why were we put here?
What for? we\'re unsure
We sure weren\'t put here to hate
Be racist, be sexist
Be bigots, be sure
We won\'t stand for your hate

Why so cut and dry
A simple concept missed
Give tolerance a try
This confusion still exists
Ignorant mongers, no area\'s gray
Couldn\'t be any wronger in this age and day

Why were we put here?
What for? we\'re unsure
We sure weren\'t put here to hate
Be racist, be sexist
Be bigots, be sure
We won\'t stand for your hate

Now how far have we come?
How come there still are some
Who won\'t let some march
To the beat of a different drum
To face it, it\'s so hard
You must be on your guard
It\'s not okay
And you\'re not free to be a different way

Let\'s try to erase it, it\'s time that we face it
If we don\'t, then who will? shame on us
Let\'s try to erase it, it\'s time that we face it
Let\'s face it, the time is upon us

[tiedyetoga]

Why doesn\'t this thread just die?

[FrankZappa]

because its about politics. Thats the one debate where everyone has a strong opinion.

[Marcial]

I\'m not saying that these babies should not be cared for... only that I don\'t wat to pay for it.  If you want to be a good sumaritan, then voluntarily pay extra crack baby taxes... I feel for them, but it is not my responsiblity to help out every crackbaby or jobless person in the country.

You know, there is a society where everyone is given what they need in order to survive... food, healthcare, education, shelter, and whatever else they need to live, all provided by the Government & spread equally across the population... ever heard of Cuba?  It\'s called COMMUNISM.

Maybe I\'m a selfish dick.  But you know what?  This is America & that is my right.

[leith]

Yeah and Communism when done right(which it never has been) is a wonderful thing.  It can never work in a large society that\'s why Socialism was developed. Too bad there is always a capitalist trying to run a communist or socialist gov.

 Btw Cuba is run by a Dictator using some of communism\'s ideas.

[Marcial]

What incentive do you have to contribute as much as you can instead of the bare minimum?  

SHOW ME THE MONEY!

[FrankZappa]

marcial, you just expressed why comunism doesnt work:


take two people living in a comunist country. One works his ass off every day and takes pride in his work. The other sleeps all day and watches jerry springer when he\'s awake while eating cookie dough.

Both people are entitled to the same benifits, including food, health, entertainment, or \'an equal share of the countries production\'. So, the person that works his ass off is going to say "Why the hell am I busting my butt? I want to sleep all day too!", and he quits his job. As a result, No production is made, and that which is is of poor quality.

[jocelyn]

When are people going to realize that many people who get help from the government are HARD WORKING people who NEED the (foodstamps for example) to feed their families? Do their children not deserve to eat? Ugh, what kind of fantasy world do you people live in, where hard work automatically leads to success?

Suggested reading: Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America by Barbara Ehrenreich. Millions of Americans work full time, year round, for peverty-level wages. Ehrenreich decided to join them, inspired in part by the rhetoric surrounding welfare reform, which promised that any job equals a better life. Good reading.

[jocelyn]

poverty* rather

[skalnbyc]

I only read a few posts and didn\'t feel like reading all the rant and grammatical mistakes that were abundant.


I\'m sick of the stupid hippies that don\'t want to work.  So many of them complain constantly and think that life is only about live music and ****.  Set some goals and accomplish something please.  They don\'t want to work very hard yet they want the hardworkers to cover their health insurance.

Looking around the Iron Horse the other night made me realize that many of the stinky hippie wastoids present had absolutely no souls and were trying so hard to fit in with their adopted subculture.  

I can see right through the hippie fluff and can tell who is genuine and who is out-to-lunch.

There are plenty of genuine hippies but the majority are clueless liberals in training pants that will believe any crap that Ralph Nader or Michael Moore tells them.  

The problem is that many of the hippies have never heard any other viewpoints (other than the extreme left) and so they lack any understanding of the big picture.  

The problem begins on University campuses, where one point of view is presented and the other side is left unacknowledged or degraded.

I can\'t stand it when sociology majors try to debate economics.  If you are simply speaking with your heart and lack any knowledge of the fundamentals that determine the momentum of economies and capital markets, then please don\'t pretend you are capable of debate.  You can argue that tax cuts take away money from the services intended for the disadvantged, but you cannot make the case that the tax cuts initiated by Bush were harmful to our economy.  Please read the chapter on debt financing and the effects of budget deficits while you are at it.  You may realize that the "crisis" may have been overstated.  

I am a fiscal conservative but am libertarian at heart.  The translation is that I believe that individuals and private institutions make the markets efficient and that I should be able to use consume/invest/donate my money as I see fit.  The less intervention from the bureaucratic hacks the better (though we do need a regulatory framework that can keep the markets running effeciently in circumstances of abuse and crisis).  

I also believe you should be able to make choices in your life as you see fit, so long as you don\'t violate the liberty of others.  If the hippies want to smoke **** all day long at the festivals and protests, so be it.  They know what is best for them.  


I really don\'t hate hippies but simply think that many particpants in the jam scene are some of the most politically ignorant people.

I also don\'t like the tactics they employ during debate.  They scream and yell to prevent you from getting your point across and always try to smear you in any way the can.  The only reason that liberals get make any progress is because they disguise emotion as fact and make you feel like their opinion is the only right answer.  If you do not agree, you are racist, sexist, classist, etc.  


Get a subscription to the Wall Street Journal.



The government is the most inefficient business and always lags the private sector by 5-10 years.

[Marcial]

Speakin\' the truth & shit!

Amen, bro!