Thread for the Administration Elect

[Drew_Kingsley]

Your Post is basically elitist in nature. Your saying your happy Obama won the election but you are questioning every persons reason for voting for him except yours. You voted for him because you are informed and know X,Y,Z but everyone else who voted for him and especially black people don\'t know shyte and that scares you. Young voters only voted for him because he was popular etc etc etc.

I hope this isn\'t how I sounded to everybody, because it\'s definitely not what I was going for.

Anyway, the simple point I was getting at 12 hours ago is that I don\'t like how the election went down for various reasons that I\'m not going to bother to outline again. Group mentality terrifies me: whether it is as complex as the demographics in a general election, or as simple as insulting anybody who disagrees with you about The Living Daylights on dotinfo. Maybe my mistake was bringing statistics into this (especially one that brings up race), so let me phrase it this way: Most of the people that I have spoken with who voted for Barack Obama don\'t seem to have a good answer as to why beyond generalities. Hopefully this is not indicative of the general public, but I fear that it is. Maybe that is how elections usually go, but I find myself far more aware of it this year than in the past.

That just about does it for my participation in this thread... being bored at work got me way more involved than I\'d like to be. It was fun bantering with y\'all.

[inthewhitelodge]

Anyone having concerns with their child\'s behavior: There is a strong correlation to our parenting strategies and how the child reacts and acts. Behaviorism is the foundation for many studies on behavior modeling, reinforcement, and extinction. (basic psychology drawn out to very specific behavioral assessment and intervention management).

The whole base of my educational goals is to help define and implement practices that encourage socially appropriate behavior, to reward acceptable behavior, and to negatively or positively reinforce undesired consequences/outcomes.

If I can help a child with autism to talk, a child with emotional/behavioral disturbance to avoid fights, or a child with add/adhd to complete assignments, there\'s something to be said about the many possibilities this implicates for parents in general. It\'s all about analysis, inquiry, and figuring out why a behavior serves a certain function. Just another reason being a special ed. teacher can help out any frustrated parents out there! ;o) I\'m fascinated how it serves as a tool in relating with people in general. (this nerd needs sleep now).

Much love and guidance to all

[tyzack]

From Obama\'s plan:

II. INTEGRATE SERVICE INTO EDUCATION  
Barack Obama calls his years working as a community organizer in Chicago’s South Side the best education he
ever had. He believes that all students should serve their communities. Studies show that students who
participate in service-learning programs do better in school, are more likely to graduate high school and go to
college, and are more likely to become active, engaged citizens. Schools that require service as part of the
educational experience create improved learning environments and serve as resources for their communities.
The Obama-Biden plan sets a goal for all students to engage in service, with middle and high school students
performing 50 hours of service each year, and college students performing 100 hours of service each year.
Under this plan, students would graduate college with as many as 17 weeks of public service experience under
their belts.  
Expand Service-Learning in Our Nation’s Schools: In November, Barack Obama laid out a comprehensive
plan to provide all Americans with a world-class education and give our schools a substantial infusion of funds
to support teachers and principals and improve student learning. That plan conditions that assistance on school
districts developing programs to engage students in service opportunities. Obama and Biden believe that middle
and high school students should be expected to engage in community service for 50 hours annually during the
school year or summer months. They will develop national guidelines for service-learning and community
service programs, and will give schools better tools both to develop successful programs and to document the
experience of students at all levels. They will encourage programs that engage with community partners to
expand opportunities for community service and service-learning opportunities, so that students can apply what
they learn in the classroom to authentic situations that help the community. These programs will also involve
citizens from the community engaging students in service opportunities through the Classroom Corps

There is no "incentive" here, no tax credit, this is mandatory. So really, jking, fucking bite me.

You guys are really ok with the government overseeing stuff like this? What happens when it\'s being run by an administration that you don\'t like? Would you want John McCain making these decisions for you? Deciding what programs are worthy, deciding who you should be volunteering for? You want to be given a list of which nonprofits qualify? Given incentive for certain volunteer work, but if you spent 8 hours a day working your own charity, picking up trash, whatever whatever, that\'s not good enough?

Don\'t you think the government is big enough already, that it meddles in your affairs plenty?

That sounds extremely Soviet.

However, the highschool I went to had a "mandatory community service" program which was the biggest hack in the world. The only people it negatively affected were the "under performers" who didn\'t do anything anyway and had to come in on weekends to rake the school grounds.

Aside from that, I got my community service hours (equal per-term to twice the number of hours a week you spent in gym/study (so one gym/study = 10 hours) a term, or 40 a year) from working at CVS.

Selling people deodarant and preventing sophmores from buying cigs is hardly enriching to the community.

I agree with Joclyean on two points; 1.) the gov\'t has no business telling me i have to volunteer. 2.) even if they do, it will create a whole new courpt and loop-hole filled bueacarcy to enforce it.

[jking]

The Obama-Biden plan sets a goal for all students to engage in service, with middle and high school students
performing 50 hours of service each year, and college students performing 100 hours of service each year.
Under this plan, students would graduate college with as many as 17 weeks of public service experience under
their belts.

this is from your post. now, please explain where anything about requirements or mandatory anything is mentioned there. and, since you don\'t have any info about the $4,000 tax credit that has been a part of this plan from the beginning, i would suggest you do a little more research before going off on anyone. i have no problem with you, but you do seem to be a shining example of folks who hear something, then get all gut-reaction pissed off, even though what you\'ve heard or been lead to believe is incorrect.

from his website~
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/education/

Make college affordable to all Americans:

Obama and Biden will create a new American Opportunity Tax Credit worth $4,000 in exchange for community service. It will cover two-thirds the cost of tuition at the average public college or university and make community college tuition completely free for most students

.

from 10/06/08
http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/2008/10/06/News/Obama.Emphasizes.Tax.Credit.For.Community.Service-3470957.shtml

Obama strongly emphasized his plan to create a tax credit that will subsidize the college tuition of Americans who conduct 100 hours of community service.

"I make a solemn vow to the young people of America," he said. "If you serve your country or your community … we are going to invest in you by making sure every single one of you can afford to go to college - no ifs, ands or buts."

from 11/07/08
http://www.boston.com/business/personalfinance/articles/2008/11/08/obamas_promised_tax_cuts/

Other tax reductions would boost expenditures to more than $1 trillion, including a tuition credit equal to the first $4,000 paid by families to public and private colleges. The catch for students is that they perform community service.

i\'ll bite you all you want, but don\'t get all high and mighty just because i\'m pointing out that the info you\'ve been given is false. just like he\'s not a muslim, there is nothing about which charities or non-profits (in fact, charities and nonprofits aren\'t even necessary, you can volunteer elsewhere) you can use and absolutely nothing about being told where you have to do your service at. some people are spreading misinformation, so do yourself a favor and do some researching/thinking for yourself instead of simply parroting what you\'ve heard....

as tyzak mentioned, most schools already require some community service, this is expanding that and saying, \'if you do 100 hours, we\'ll give you $4000 towards your college tuition.\' again, nothing is mandatory, but everyone participating is the end goal. if you, as a non-about-to-enter-college person want to volunteer, that\'s great. this program is about helping people of all income levels be able to afford a college education. that\'s all. and of all the things to attack about, education help (considering the worsening stance of american students compared to the rest of the world) really seems like an odd choice, to me.

[derickw]

i HAD to do community service to get my degree. it was manditory because of Alan Fienstien..... some rich dude who gives my old college money but in return requires everyone to do something for the community. I donated some cloths to the Salvation Army.... that was my good deed. i got my BS and called it a win.

so do i agree with mandatory community service...... maybe in a way, it might make people stop and think about there actions next time they decide to throw something out of the window of the car or pick up a piece of trash rolling by them in a parking lot.
buuutttttt..... i don\'t think we need the government to tell us we HAVE to do these things. These are common scene things that should be taught by our parents, mentors and peers. A lot of people have become to self absorbed and i feel in a way we all lost touch with our fellow Americans. when was the last time anybody here stopped to help someone out that could be in need (hypothetical question) i really don\'t care about your answer it was more to make you stop and think about someone other than yourself.

[SlimPickens]

Group mentality terrifies me.

Group mentality only terrifies me when their beliefs differ from mine.  I\'m all for the angry mob when they agree with me.

[FrankZappa]

There is no "incentive" here, no tax credit, this is mandatory. So really, jking, fucking bite me.

You guys are really ok with the government overseeing stuff like this? What happens when it\'s being run by an administration that you don\'t like? Would you want John McCain making these decisions for you? Deciding what programs are worthy, deciding who you should be volunteering for? You want to be given a list of which nonprofits qualify? Given incentive for certain volunteer work, but if you spent 8 hours a day working your own charity, picking up trash, whatever whatever, that\'s not good enough?

Don\'t you think the government is big enough already, that it meddles in your affairs plenty?

Jocelyn, you\'re my hero. :wave:

[jocelyn]

The Obama-Biden plan sets a goal for all students to engage in service, with middle and high school students
performing 50 hours of service each year, and college students performing 100 hours of service each year.
Under this plan, students would graduate college with as many as 17 weeks of public service experience under
their belts.

this is from your post. now, please explain where anything about requirements or mandatory anything is mentioned there.
Here:

Obama and Biden believe that middle
and high school students should be expected to engage in community service for 50 hours annually during the
school year or summer months. They will develop national guidelines for service-learning and community
service programs, and will give schools better tools both to develop successful programs and to document the
experience of students at all levels.

and, since you don\'t have any info about the $4,000 tax credit that has been a part of this plan from the beginning, i would suggest you do a little more research before going off on anyone. i have no problem with you, but you do seem to be a shining example of folks who hear something, then get all gut-reaction pissed off, even though what you\'ve heard or been lead to believe is incorrect.

I didn\'t mention that because I have no issue with that aspect of his plan. I also didn\'t bring up the military section of the plan because I don\'t know enough about it (it\'s pretty vague as he has laid it out.) The incentive/tax credit is fine by me as long as it\'s truly incentive and thus not mandatory. I read his entire plan FOUR times. I think that\'s sufficient research.


i\'ll bite you all you want, but don\'t get all high and mighty just because i\'m pointing out that the info you\'ve been given is false. just like he\'s not a muslim, there is nothing about which charities or non-profits (in fact, charities and nonprofits aren\'t even necessary, you can volunteer elsewhere) you can use and absolutely nothing about being told where you have to do your service at. some people are spreading misinformation, so do yourself a favor and do some researching/thinking for yourself instead of simply parroting what you\'ve heard....

I\'ve done plenty of research. The only thoughts I\'m parroting are my own. It doesn\'t take a brilliant mind to come to the realization that someone is going to be deciding what is considered legit community service and what isn\'t, and that this could easily get political/sleazy/biased/bureaucratic/whatever.

as tyzak mentioned, most schools already require some community service, this is expanding that and saying, \'if you do 100 hours, we\'ll give you $4000 towards your college tuition.\' again, nothing is mandatory, but everyone participating is the end goal. if you, as a non-about-to-enter-college person want to volunteer, that\'s great. this program is about helping people of all income levels be able to afford a college education. that\'s all. and of all the things to attack about, education help (considering the worsening stance of american students compared to the rest of the world) really seems like an odd choice, to me.

Of course that\'s all you see when you see this plan. It\'s not significant to you if you have no issue with big government. I think most of the people on this forum LOVE big government. I, however, cannot just take this plan at face value, but must look at the precedent it sets, and realize what dangers it may be indicative of. But here we have a fundamental difference in your beliefs and mine, and what\'s important to me is clearly not important to you.

[jking]

so what you\'re saying is that, as the plan actually stands, you have no problem with it. you just don\'t like the idea of what could possibly happen (even though the guy\'s not even in office yet, nor are any of his plans anywhere near finalized).

listen, i\'m not an obama fanatic, i don\'t believe the apocalypse would have come if mccain was elected, but there is still nothing about mandatory service, nothing about telling anyone where they have to do their service, nothing about which programs are acceptable, other than it is up to the schools to create the program. not big government, the schools themselves. it says that students should be "expected" to complete 50 hours a year. in my high school, 10 was required, 25 got you an extra half-a-grade (B to B+), any extra time was just great. so this says that they would like a program that doubles an already-existing program while adding a $4,000 college tuition incentive. there is nothing about expanding government, merely giving tools to schools for creating/improving their own programs. it says they "will develop national guidelines for service-learning" which is already done at the Dept of Ed, and "community service programs" which are currently under the auspices of HUD. so, there\'s already departments of education and hud, which means nothing needs expanding, its all already in place. the plan is to use the resources we have for the benefit of college bound students. you\'re just worried about \'what-if\'s\' which you are more than welcome to be worried about. i don\'t worry that the sky is falling, but you should feel free to.

and as much as the arguement about "BIG government" is bandied about, please remember that *every* administration has increased the size of the government. you may as well put to bed that red herring, because its like arguing against the sun rising in the east. instead of being worried about a big government that is going to exist no matter who gets in, why not work to ensure that its doing beneficial things for us, the citizens of the country, rather than handing out no-bid contracts to companies with no oversight, tax breaks to corporations in lieu of the citizenry and using its departments to subvert established laws (the epa comes right to mind)?

i simply see no problem with the concept of \'if you help out your community, you will be rewarded.\' i know bush would have politicized the process. in fact, we have clear evidence that he did exact that with his most of his policies, but i\'m pretty willing to suggest that obama is not going to use the same unsuccessful tactics as bush. seems like that\'s been pretty clear for two years now...

[inthewhitelodge]

The main concern I have is that public education is in itself its own bureaucratic mess. The standards have increased, and accountability, which is good, but the No Child Left behind Act creates lots of red tape for school districts. Not to mention the standards are highly dependent on teaching ideals that are extremely socialist. Just try and find a professor who is conservative, and I mean NOT a neo-con. You won\'t find many in public schools, because big gov\'t is all the rage to many liberal professors.

Something to consider about Free/accessible education for all- if lots of people have degrees, the very value of a degree is reduced and therefore can create and influx of educated people competing in the marketplace for jobs. We all know someone who got a degree \'just to get one\', and now has much trouble finding a job, even one related to their particular field. A great example, the Liberal Arts degree. They may be overqualified or under qualified and it\'s often difficult to find a middle ground. I\'m not saying education is a bad idea, but putting people in college just for college sake would increase taxes for everyone, essentially socializing education.

[jking]

wait a minute. you WANT an uneducated generation to be running the country when you\'re retired?? or do you think that only certain people should be allowed to run for office?? because that\'s not segreationist at all! and "teaching ideals that are extremely socialist"?? do you even understand what that term means? they are not teaching popular control of corporations, they are teaching rote memorization to score a certain number on a test so that the school gets some of what nclb said they\'d get and so they don\'t lose accredidation. i make a very nice second income teaching unimportant things like reading comprehension and critical thinking because these things are no longer taught, yet you think that even fewer students need/should have the opportunity to learn these things???

i mean, seriously, you\'re joking, right???

[kindm's]

The main concern I have is that public education is in itself its own bureaucratic mess. The standards have increased, and accountability, which is good, but the No Child Left behind Act creates lots of red tape for school districts. Not to mention the standards are highly dependent on teaching ideals that are extremely socialist. Just try and find a professor who is conservative, and I mean NOT a neo-con. You won\'t find many in public schools, because big gov\'t is all the rage to many liberal professors.

Something to consider about Free/accessible education for all- if lots of people have degrees, the very value of a degree is reduced and therefore can create and influx of educated people competing in the marketplace for jobs. We all know someone who got a degree \'just to get one\', and now has much trouble finding a job, even one related to their particular field. A great example, the Liberal Arts degree. They may be overqualified or under qualified and it\'s often difficult to find a middle ground. I\'m not saying education is a bad idea, but putting people in college just for college sake would increase taxes for everyone, essentially socializing education.

I agree when everyone is "special" no one is. We already see this now.

When my parents were young they only needed a High School education to get a good job, Years later that became a College degree, Now your looking at Masters at least, next it will PhD if it isn\'t there already. All that really means is that the "exceptional" or "Educational Elite" will HAVE to spend more time in school in order to be recognized / rewarded for the work.

When everyone has a college degree it will no longer seperate you from anyone. There will have to be other "markers" to show potential success in the workplace. It will be a masters or PhD or some other form of credentials like they have in the IT worlds. CCNA, MCSE, etc etc

[SlimPickens]

That\'s not really true Kindm.  I know and work with many people that only have HS diploma\'s.  And I\'m in an IT shop for a good sized company.

[tyzack]

I think that some fields require degrees, while others don\'t.

But that is an obivous statement.

The truth is that alot of kids do not know what they want to do FOR THE NEXT 50 YEARS when they are 17 or 18. Socierty does not expect them to have the judgement to decide if they should drink or not, but expects them to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives. So a lot of people get degrees in subjects which they find fasinating and which are not, in themselves, employable. The benifet of these educations is the show the student that the world is larger than XYZ Highschool, offer them some insight into things that they previously had not explored and to teach them how to plan, manage and execute simple tasks, by themselves or in groups that are 2-6 man-months in effort.

 The other side of that are the degrees which are directly employable. Basically; trades. I would list all of the "Engineering" degrees in this catagory along with "research" sciences of Biology, Chemistry, Physics, etc and the "practiced" sciences of pyschology/pyshckyitry/and maybe socialiogly.

That leaves the vast majority of degrees unemployable in and of themselves (with exceptions). To require that a job applicant has one of these degrees is really jsut saying "We want to know that you know how to handle yourself" - a histroy major who gets a job as a finicial anyalst, for example.

 Then there is a whole range of careers based around 2-year degrees - commerial aviation, culinary arts, locomotive engineering are examples.

 I guess that what I am saying is that requiring a degree of everyone in the society is saying "we want to make sure that you are doing more than the minimum expected of you." (when high-school is the minumum, college is above in previous generations anything was the mimumum so high-school was okay.)

 Does making a 2 or 4 year degree the minimum make sense, no, not really. But asking a 17 year old to decide what they want to do for the rest of their life doesn\'t make sense to me either.