When is a show a show? (stat geekdom)

[Wolfman]

When is a show a show and when is a show not a show?

ChrisF has alleged that 8/2/03 should not count as a show for stats purposes.  I say that it should.

Relevant Deets:
-Private wedding reception
-Setlist = Peace Frog > Fairy, One Big Mob* *w/ Dave Pec on vox
-All 4 members of PB played the entire set
-The performance was planned in advance

Phish.net, who I respect a great deal for setlists, agrees with ChrisF that a wedding show should not count.  Phish.net lists a Phish wedding show on 9/6/08 (Setlist= Suzie Greenberg, Julius, Waste) and although it refers to the show as a "performance", there is actually a footnote that says "This Phish performance does not count for stats purposes."    
http://phish.net/setlists/2008.html

I respectfully disagree with ChrisF and Phish.net.  These are shows and they should count.  I assume that the rationale for not counting these is because they are private parties?  That doesn\'t hold up.  There are several private parties in Breakfast history and nobody has ever argued that they shouldn\'t count. See:
9/3/01: http://thebreakfast.info/forum/showthread.php?p=271603#post271603
10/13/02 which had 2 full sets and 4 encores: http://thebreakfast.info/forum/showthread.php?p=271604#post271604

How can 10/13/02 not count?  The whole band played their usual material for a large crowd for over three hours as part of a planned and paid performance.  It has to count.  And if 10/13/02 counts, then 8/2/03 has to count.  Again, the whole band played their usual material for a large crowd as part of a planned performance.

Another issue becomes what constitutes "private"?    
       
Let\'s hash out some ideas as to what constitutes a show that counts and what would disqualify a show for stats purposes:

Definitely not a show:
- Band practice
- A show featuring some but not all band members that is billed as something else where the remaining band members sit in. (So if Jordan and Chris simultaneously sit in with Kung Fu, that is not a Breakfast show.)  
- Spontaneous musical moment at a planned or unplanned event.  So if the whole band happens to be at a party at the Annex Club, or hanging out at someone\'s house, and they all happen to end up playing instruments at the same time... this is not a show even if they start playing their own original songs.

Might disqualify, might not:
- Missing band members.  If 8/2/03 were missing band members then I would consider that a strong case for not counting it.  At the same time, missing band members often does not disqualify a show.  For example, The Disco Biscuits played 3/19/10 at the House of Blues in Boston without their lead guitarist who was injured the night before, but I think we can agree that this was still a Disco Biscuits show.
- Private party.  Again, this gets hard to define.  9/3/01, 10/13/02, and 8/2/03 are all private parties.  If you want to count 9/3/01 and 10/13/02 and NOT 8/2/03 then you would really need to hash this out.    

Things that are either mandatory or definitely help make a show count:
- It is planned in advance
- The band is promoted, introduced, or otherwise billed as their group name
- The band gets paid
- The whole band plays the whole time
- The band plays their own originals and/or covers that they have played before
- There is a live audience
- The live audience generally understands that the performance they are witnessing is by said band

Note how a wedding show fits all 7 criteria in this category and none of the disqualifying categories.

Thoughts?

[bdfreetuna]

I would say that should not count as a show because half the performance was Peace Frog.

[jking]

just to add another wrinkle.... when they played our wedding (5/17/08) it was the current lineup. however, at the time matt was the official keyboardist, he just had another gig (and, frankly, we were more excited about jordan being there than matt, so it worked out wonderfully for us! - but i digress). they announced themselves as the spastic wolverines, but was it actually the first gig with this line up??


as to your question - i tend to think a couple songs shouldn\'t count, but if they do a full length set, then it should.

[SkyePrizm]

if its listed as "private", I don\'t think it should counted as a show because the majority of fans were not in attendance/could not be in attendance.  especially if it was for a wedding.

I would say that should not count as a show because half the performance was Peace Frog.

you still hating on the doors??  

[leith]

FitZ and Phish.net are correct.  A private wedding reception should not be counted for stat purposes as it was private and not available for fans to go if they made it. If there is a list that excludes a portion of the fan base then not a show. As for a band picking up instruments at a party and playing listed as definitely not a show is idiotic.

If a band picks up instruments and plays an entire set or more for whoever is there and it\'s not an exclusionary event why can\'t that be a show? It was only spontaneous not exclusive.

[Igziabeher]

i think all of the above should be counted as shows.

[ChrisF]

i think it probably should count as a show based on the reasons wolfman has given, but i would like to know if the band counted 8/2/03(and some others) as a show when they added up how many PB shows had been played up until the 1000th.

if they had not played a show advertised as the 1000th then it could still be up for debate, but since the band counted their gigs that means at some point in time they officially decided whether 8/2/03 counts show or not. so if the band did not count this in their stats toward the first 1000 gigs then we shouldnt count it either.

[leith]

i think it probably should count as a show based on the reasons wolfman has given, but i would like to know if the band counted 8/2/03(and some others) as a show when they added up how many PB shows had been played up until the 1000th.

if they had not played a show advertised as the 1000th then it could still be up for debate, but since the band counted their gigs that means at some point in time they officially decided whether 8/2/03 counts show or not. so if the band did not count this in their stats toward the first 1000 gigs then we shouldnt count it either.

woah! That is waaay too logical

[Wolfman]

I would say that should not count as a show because half the performance was Peace Frog.

Let\'s not exaggerate...it was only 1/3 of the performance, not half
/mathgeek

[Drew_Kingsley]

It sounds like Fitz solved it in this case... but here\'s my take (because I had a pretty strong case going before his post rendered it moot):

The Breakfast is an established band with more than a decade of public performances under its belt. In that respect, The Breakfast being hired to play a private event (such as a wedding) is no different than Justin Bieber being hired for some rich girl\'s Sweet 16 party.

Just because we, the loyal show-taping and setlist-reporting fanbase, hear about and/or attend said private events, it does not make them "shows" in the same vain as a concert at Toad\'s Place. Basically, the "problem" stems from the fact that the band has said loyal following from Day 1, when house parties and whatnot had the same or better attendance figures than standard "bar" shows.

My rule (which I\'m sure will have as many exceptions and caveats as any other rule) is that if you could say "I went to a concert" and not be omitting key information (i.e. "two people got married"), it was a show.

And, for what it\'s worth, I had always heard that the "1,000th show" was basically an estimate. I make no claim that this is a fact, however.

[bdfreetuna]

I would say that should not count as a show because half the performance was Peace Frog.

Let\'s not exaggerate...it was only 1/3 of the performance, not half
/mathgeek

Fairy clocks in probably around 6 minutes and I give One Big Mob four.

I bet they jammed out that Peace Frog for a solid 10

[Igziabeher]

I would say that should not count as a show because half the performance was Peace Frog.

Let\'s not exaggerate...it was only 1/3 of the performance, not half
/mathgeek

Fairy clocks in probably around 6 minutes and I give One Big Mob four.

I bet they jammed out that Peace Frog for a solid 10

One Big Mobb is usually longer than Peace Frog, quit trying to back up your statement with falsehoods.

[inCognito]

brought this up last night at Bar, but worth posting here.

INTENT is the key qualifier.
who\'s glory is it? what is the purpose of the event?

the band performing at a wedding is not there for their own glory, promotion, etc.  the wedding is the event.  it is for the glory, celebration, etc of the couple being wed.  = not a show

a private party would be. the band is a draw for the party (not the case of a wedding)  the band is very likely able to promote themselves at a party in a way that would be, at best, extremely distasteful at a wedding.  private party = a show

spontaneous musical event = maybe.  depending duration, members present, and all of the other mitigating factors that wolfman noted.  everyone sitting around a campfire and all members of the bfast break out instruments and play several songs.... the musical happening is more "newsworthy" and is the "bigger deal" compared to a campfire hangout.

sitting in with another band = not a show - they are their for another bands glory.  
* unless there is a full on band switch and several songs are played in which case the host band is truly sharing the love.  for example - moe. at the highline ballroom on 5/3/07  on the second night of a 5 night run in the encore they did a band switch with Fishbone whom ended up playing about 5 original songs = fishbone show.  
worth a listen  http://www.archive.org/details/moe2007-05-03.akg483


worth noting a distinction should be drawn from what Fitzy said above --- a gig and a show are not the same thing.

a gig is any paying endeavor.  payment doesn\'t have to be explicitly cash for notes.  can be publicity, two songs in a radio studio, etc.  much lower threshold than show, which we have been doing a bang up job of defining  
all shows are gigs, but not all gigs are shows

[galenas]

weddings are not shows, though they are performances. venn diagram that shit, yo.

[bdfreetuna]

I would say that should not count as a show because half the performance was Peace Frog.

Let\'s not exaggerate...it was only 1/3 of the performance, not half
/mathgeek

Fairy clocks in probably around 6 minutes and I give One Big Mob four.

I bet they jammed out that Peace Frog for a solid 10

One Big Mobb is usually longer than Peace Frog, quit trying to back up your statement with falsehoods.

Fair enough. One Big Mobb averages around 9 minutes... Peace Frog around 11...

at least according to my collection of shows on the hard drive.

I quit anyway. Gettin\' too nerdy up in here.