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Quote from: Spacey;155601
I have no reason not to admit my error and ignorance. Its the least I can do.
My only defense is that I have never seen a full episode of John From Cincinnati because I could not fully grasp it and kept looking around at the other people watching, asking what the hell was happening.
I always thought this was kinda part of the beauty to it, the "what the **** is going on?!?" factor. It made me wanna keep watching. -
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from PBS:Quote
Tavis: I am pleased to welcome David Milch back to this program. For 25 years, he\'s been one of TV\'s most creative and prolific writers and producers, including seminal shows like "Hill Street Blues," "NYPD Blue," and more recently, "Deadwood." He\'s once again teamed up with HBO for his latest project, "John From Cincinnati. The show wraps up its first season this Sunday night. Here now, a scene from "John From Cincinnati."
[Clip]
Tavis: So I said to David Milch while the clip was running, “I hope you can explain that scene.” So, Mr. Milch, you\'re on.
David Milch: I don\'t think explanation is a relevant category. (Laughter)
Tavis: It is when you do a talk show.
Milch: Yeah, I guess you\'re right. I was going to offer a substitute for explanation. (Laughter) I had wanted, when I\'d first pitched "Deadwood" to HBO -
Tavis: And by the way, congratulations - six Emmy nominations next month for "Deadwood."
Milch: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Tavis: I\'m sorry, go ahead.
Milch: I had wanted to do a show about the genesis of faith. And it was set in Rome, and it was about city cops in Rome, and the first collar they made was St. Paul. And they were already doing a show set in Rome. And I was interested in faith as a regenerative and reorganizing principle for the community - in this case, Rome itself.
They were doing a show set in Rome, so I said, “Okay, how about gold?” An illusion agreed upon - rather than the cross, the abstract worth of a metal. Everyone agreeing and seeing how that reorganized a society. This is a show in which I tried - I wanted to come back to the original idea. If God were trying to make himself known with a particular urgency because the apocalypse is coming, and if the difficulty was not with his faculty of communication but rather with our capacity to understand.
Tavis: And I\'m with you so far. You choose, though, a dysfunctional surfer family as the vehicle to impart whatever it is that Milch is trying to impart to us - whatever the characters are trying to say to us. Tell me how that choice becomes -
Milch: The idea that the universe is a solid system but a series of waves. And that man is not an individual creature, but that his essence is carried from seeming individual to seeming individual is available to surfers if they aren\'t loaded and selfish or if they don\'t become addicted to the behavior of surfing itself. Doesn\'t often happen. (Laughter)
Tavis: You are not just a writer and a producer - every time we have conversations on this program, this is our third or fourth time doing this now and I\'m always honored to have you here - I\'m always fascinated to talk to you because I know I\'m going to learn something and be challenged in some sort of way. You are, in your own way, an intellectual. Which -
Milch: What do you mean, in my own way?
Tavis: Let me put it this way - I don\'t (unintelligible) many people like you in this business.
Milch: Thank you, sir.
Tavis: How about that? And so what fascinates me is how you get these profound, deep, provocative thoughts in your head that you then have to translate -
Milch: And how I can sell them to these people (laughs)?
Tavis: Exactly. I\'m like, who in the heck in the meeting understood what you said in this city, to begin with - sorry about that. But who understood what you were saying, and furthermore, to the question, how do you then take these high concepts and write a TV show that people like me - everyday people who aren\'t as bright - can actually follow the storyline?
Milch: Usually I check for my wallet after somebody says that. (Laughter) Everyday people.
Tavis: How do you bring it down to people who can actually follow what you were trying -
Milch: Well, there is a very cogent and articulate school of thought which says I didn\'t bring it down. (Laughter) And in fact, that question - the artist is one of God\'s surrogates, I believe. And what I was just saying about God trying to make himself understood, I believe is the artists\' challenge, as well. I can make myself understood at the sacrifice of the truth.
The challenge is to make oneself understood and to try simultaneously to stay true to one\'s sense of the deeper trues of experience. And I pray before I start to work every day. I won\'t think about what I\'m writing before I begin to write, and I ask to be a vessel of whatever intentions my experience has prepared me to make available to others.
Tavis: You said something a moment ago that I am certain that I will use, so let me just say now on national television that the first time I use the line that I want to reference here in a moment I will give attribution to David Milch. The second time I use it, it\'ll be something like, "I heard somebody say." And the third time I use it, it will be, "as I always say." (Laughter) But it\'s a great line.
It\'s a great line from David Milch, and the line was that the artist is God\'s surrogate. I love that prose. The artist is God\'s surrogate. There are some persons who I suspect though are listening right now who don\'t get what you said and what I certainly get who might think that sounds a bit arrogant.
Milch: Quite the opposite, I think.
Tavis: Right. I agree, but.
Milch: That is a question that anyone of faith asks himself in this version every day. Is the thing that I believe in most fundamentally absolutely useless in the society in which I am given to live? And the answer is, not if you act in faith. And so I must believe that I am God\'s surrogate in the sense that any of us, I believe, is put here to do his will as we understand it.
Whether we choose to or not is up to us, and so why surfers? Surfers are because my show - "Deadwood" was canceled, inexplicably to me. The suggestion -
Tavis: Six Emmy nominations, though.
Milch: The suggestion was made to me, why don\'t you do a show about surfers? Young, masculine, that\'s the demographic. Can you do that and have it engage your own spirit? "John From Cincinnati."
Tavis: "John From Cincinnati." And the title comes from?
Milch: The German mathematician Leibniz spoke of monads - indissoluble pieces of matter which God used to create the universe. And this guy\'s name on a credit card which appears in his hand is John Monad. And butchy surfer junky (unintelligible) member Monad, he says, "You look like the kind of guy that would come from Cincinnati." And John, who purifies the intention of anything that anyone says to him, says, "I am from Cincinnati."
Tavis: Yep. (Laughs) So, hence "John From Cincinnati."
Milch: Sure.
Tavis: Let me turn here.
Milch: It\'s a pleasure to see you again.
Tavis: I\'m always delighted to see you, and always challenged by our conversations, in a very good way. With all that you possess and hear in your head and in your heart, as evidenced by these conversations we have that always trip me up, are your talents, you think, being best used in the line of work that you are in? I wonder whether or not, with all that you have to offer, whether or not TV and film is the best way to you for you to use those gifts. Does that make sense?
Milch: Absolutely. I believe absolutely I am properly employed in television, because when you\'re as - I don\'t want to say crazy, but when you\'re the way I am and you have been successful, you embody the mystification of the businessman, the paradox of the businessman in dealing with the creative people.
Which is, I don\'t know what they\'re doing, they\'re children, they\'re idiots, you don\'t know what they\'re going to give you - and they leave me alone. Whether they\'re going to keep leaving me alone is always the question, (laughter) but better they leave me alone than the doctors.
Tavis: So where does "John From Cincinnati" go from here?
Milch: I don\'t know.
Tavis: You don\'t know? You never know till you sit down? Is that pretty much the way it works?
Milch: Oh, no, I know where "John From Cincinnati" would go if they\'re going to keep doing the show. What the fate of the show is going to be is still up in the air, and I\'m going to keep working and in some ways, I think all stories are the same story. So -
Tavis: Which means what, right quick?
Milch: Which means that if God is anywhere, he\'s everywhere, and it\'s my task - I said to a priest, as he was dying, “I\'m grateful to have lived long enough to be able to say to you that the shadow in which I always believed I and my characters must move is cast by God\'s sheltering hand.” So any story can let you do that.
Tavis: See why I like talking to this guy all the time? It\'s always for me - sometimes I do this stuff because I hope you enjoy it, and other times I do it just for me, and tonight was one of those conversations. David Milch, nice to see you.
Milch: My pleasure, sir.
Tavis: Always glad to have you here.
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^^^^makes me happy i discontinued watching the show. interesting, but self-indulgent. i\'m not saying he\'s arrogant, he just has the luxury of being able to put his deepest beliefs (that are 100% a matter of opinion) and thoughts on HBO for the world to see. i\'m just not interested on his take, nor are my beliefs in the least bit correlated with his, so i\'d rather do something else with my time than try to pick apart his "soul" and figure out what the **** is going on with John-Jesus Cincinnati-Christ.
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There might actually be a better chance of a Jesus resurrection than this show coming back.
Thou shalt not renew shitty programs for a second season. -
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wow, i can\'t believe all the hate here, i mean i think this is probably the most important work in the history of the medium of television, and i think it being cancelled says some bad things about America as a whole, and the higher ups at HBO, this was the most spiritual show on TV, and it will be missed by many people
"Mother of God Cass Kai"
also i dont think it\'s wrong to say alot of people are stupid? i mean i know alot of people who watched all 10 episodes, and didnt realize that John\'s father was the used car dealer, i mean how dense can you get? also anyone who didn\'t watch all ten episodes really shouldnt comment, i mean that like listening to 8 second of a breakfast song and then saying it sucks, you should really watch the whole "work" to judge it fairly
also the acting was brilliant, and the writing was brilliant, and milch is a **** god -
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Quote from: ChrisPitch;164172
Thou shalt not renew shitty programs for a second season.
The history of television programming contradicts thy edict. -
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Quote from: RadicalRich1138;164189
also the acting was brilliant, and the writing was brilliant, and milch is a **** god
another reason the show didnt hold my attention. a lot of the acting was garbage, imo. like i said, this really is all a matter of opinion. i think a lot of people jumped on the J from C train to feel like they were a part of something "above" the common "stupid Americans" that I keep reading about. i understand the point, i just dont care for it. so, if you will, step down from your pedestal and realize that although Milch is a smart man, he\'s still just a man. i\'ll explain to friends, and people in general, why i like something, but i won\'t belittle them if they don\'t care for it....
that is unless, of course, if we\'re talking about The Breakfast. "TB Haters that way!! Stone them!!!" :doublewink: -
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i dont think i\'m better or smarter than you but i\'d love to know who\'s acting you thought was sub-par? i found everyone to be at the top of the their game, not to mention alot of the deadwood cast, i dont know how you feel about that show, but it\'s considered one of the best shows of all time due to milch, and the acting and a host of other things.
i think the problem with this show was that people didn\'t want to try and undestand it, some episodes take multiple viewing to understand them, and are as dense, or more dense than most modern films, the same was true with deadwood, also most people don\'t like to think about or address the issues that the show brought up, ie.. 9/11, 9/11 truth movement, and the like, i feel most people didnt put enough in to get anything out, not to say i\'m smarter than anyone, but i do know alot about tv/film, and this show was without a doubt an original work of art, that some people LOVED, and some people didn\'t like, which i think is true of all great art, this wasnt an a>b>c show, it was all over the place, and may have been hard for some people to follow, but i think the world lost something very important when this show was cancelled
>-oQuote from: jocelyn;164254Quote from: ChrisPitch;164172Thou shalt not renew shitty programs for a second season.
The history of television programming contradicts thy edict.
actually it\'s more like exact opposite, it you change it to third, or forth
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Deadwood
Carnivale -
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ill write more later but off the top of my head i didnt care for butchie\'s acting, sean was horrible, and the girl that worked at the surf-shop that butchie had sex with (her name is slipping right now) was terrible. i thought cissy and mitch and ed o\'neill were very good, and i definitely enjoyed john.
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i liked butchie and kai, i can understand if you didnt though
also with shawn, i think alot of people seeit as bad acting but when you realize he\'s alot like john, i think it makes him much more believeable, imo
"What makes the danger of ethnic cleansing so much more acute in contemporary times, and one of the things I want to engage in this series, is the extent to which we now reside in virtual space, and the homicidal impulse that\'s generated by the violation of our virtual space. After the planes flew into the World Trade Center, we were subjected to the stimuli of those images in our virtual space over and over and over again. And because of the way we\'re set up physiologically, we experience those as continuous ongoing attacks. They predispose us to a violence toward the people whom we take as the perpetrators, because we can\'t individuate. And because of the way we receive information, we identify the attackers as Ragheads. Our willingness to respond in a genocidal fashion, I think, is not to be underestimated, and that\'s one of the reasons that this postulated force from elsewhere [John] has dispatched these various miracles – to arouse the recognition that the apocalypse is upon us."
MILCH\'d
"Here\'s the thing. If you\'ve **** up unremittingly for decades you wake up and you say to yourself, \'How the **** am I still alive? Don\'t they come and revoke the license at a certain point?\' That\'s what the universe gives us every morning. No matter how far we have veered from reverence for the miraculous fact that we exist in a universe that we don\'t understand, every day we get a chance to start over...
"John is the chance that the universe gives you every day. And commerce, in the form of Linc, has been persuaded to enlist itself in the service of a miracle. Now, Linc\'s going to think he\'s bullshitting, because no one is ever sure of their sincerity. The only way that you demonstrate your sincerity is in action. Whatever Linc thinks he\'s doing, however uncertain he is, he has decided to take action and enlist Jake in protecting John\'s identity, so that the anxiety that people feel when they see a plane flying into a building, which makes them want to kill a stranger, doesn\'t happen to John. And the way that commerce is going to try to protect John is by saying, \'All these miracles that have been going on? It was all Stinkweed. It was all bullshit. It was all commerce. It was a big f**king promotion.\' ... What we\'re seeing is the elaborate resourcefulness of commerce once it has devoted itself to attempting to protect the universe."
more Milch -
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I have to agree with Gordo regarding Sean\'s acting... I thought it was abysmal.
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Great, great show. Whatever to those that didn\'t think so. It should have at least been given the chance of a second season, Carnivale was cancelled for basically the same reasons (too weird for people), and it was at least given a second to season to develop more. Milch is a genius.
HBO\'s newest show, can\'t think of the name of it right now but it\'s aboutr couples in sex therapy or something, has had fairly significantly less viewership than JFC, and it was renewed. Fuckin HBO, if I was subscribed I\'d cancel it. -
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Quote from: RadicalRich1138;164305
"Here\'s the thing. If you\'ve **** up unremittingly for decades you wake up and you say to yourself, \'How the **** am I still alive? Don\'t they come and revoke the license at a certain point?\' That\'s what the universe gives us every morning. No matter how far we have veered from reverence for the miraculous fact that we exist in a universe that we don\'t understand, every day we get a chance to start over...
"John is the chance that the universe gives you every day. And commerce, in the form of Linc, has been persuaded to enlist itself in the service of a miracle. Now, Linc\'s going to think he\'s bullshitting, because no one is ever sure of their sincerity. The only way that you demonstrate your sincerity is in action. Whatever Linc thinks he\'s doing, however uncertain he is, he has decided to take action and enlist Jake in protecting John\'s identity, so that the anxiety that people feel when they see a plane flying into a building, which makes them want to kill a stranger, doesn\'t happen to John. And the way that commerce is going to try to protect John is by saying, \'All these miracles that have been going on? It was all Stinkweed. It was all bullshit. It was all commerce. It was a big f**king promotion.\' ... What we\'re seeing is the elaborate resourcefulness of commerce once it has devoted itself to attempting to protect the universe."
more Milch
That\'s pretty cool right there. And for this reason I definitely see why people are pissed the show was cancelled. It\'s interesting though because the show is very much demanding of your time to understand it fully. I\'d have a hard time believing anyone here broke **** down internally like Milch did right here upon viewing. Yes, that is the draw for a lot of people I\'m sure, the \'mystery\' of it all. The irony is that, specifically here, Milch hasn\'t been resourceful in this commercial world to protect his own show. This might actually make him smile in an "I told ya\' so" sense.
Also, I feel like he plays both sides of the spirituality idea without knowing it. For those people who **** up every day and keep on tickin, sure they could run a spiritual route and feel greatful for the mysteries of the universe. But to me it\'s demographically very, very specific here. You can\'t apply that rule to an enormous population that has swallowed the mercilisness of this world. To some extent I think his world is very much an American world. -