thebreakfast.info
Breakfast Babble => The Grand Scheme Of Things => Topic started by: Overexjoesure on January 23, 2006, 01:39:11 pm
-
Geez Fitz because you must have the same ears as God Almighty....
check out stone church, puppet house, and moe down and if you dont think they are some of the best sounding recordings then i dont know what to tell you.
They sound damn good to me. Night and tight, and I like to hear the audience sounds too. If I get beligerent at a Breakfast show its nice to have it archived as well ;)
Really all you tapers are the f*ckin\' men! The fact that so many quality Breakfast recordings exist up on archive.org has been a pretty big factor causing me to rediscover PB after a couple years of slackin. Plus I\'m a pack rat for live shows. I know I got shows from Peck, Chris, Vallo, and some matrices/SBD stuff. I guess I prefer a real good AUD.
I have noticed that sound quality of the recorded shows has improved a good bit between 04 and by the end of 05. There\'s no one taper I prefer, all you guys do a good job, and no doubt some venues are harder to tape than others.
Props where they\'re due.
-
I\'m not going to comment on this thread anymore. I\'m just going to get myself into trouble. If some of you are interested in what these matrices/multitracks sound like check out my mix thread,,
-
Geez Fitz because you must have the same ears as God Almighty....
check out stone church, puppet house, and moe down and if you dont think they are some of the best sounding recordings then i dont know what to tell you.
^ Tru dat
-
Geez Fitz because you must have the same ears as God Almighty....
check out stone church, puppet house, and moe down and if you dont think they are some of the best sounding recordings then i dont know what to tell you.
-
I miss your recordings Matt...
-
In terms of recordings, a matrix recording is a direct soundboard feed (typically left,right) mixed with 2 audience microphones (left,right) to produce a 2 channel (left, right) mix.
A POST matrix is when the soundboard and audience mics are recording seperately (typically 4 channels; 2 left, 2 right) and then are mixed to 2 channels(left,right) at a later time. The advantage of this is the ratio of board vs. aud can be changed to produce the best sound (what sounds best to the engineer). If the soundboard doesn\'t sound good more audience mics can be mixed in and vice versa.
Multitrack recordings are where individual vocal, guitar, drums, bass, and keyboard microphone/direct channels are recorded separately and then mixed at a later date creating a completely different mix and effects from the live board mix and in some cases avoiding clipping, distortion and too much reverb.
Multitrack matrix = multitrack + audience mics. all mixed at a later date at the discretion of the recording engineer. This method gives the most control over the mix and the desired sound in a production environment. It does not necessarily reflect more natural sound or have the original intent of the musicians or the live engineer, but this "live" recording will have a better blend of all instruments and clarity all at the control of the mixing engineer.
From what I recall, for the following reasons soundboards are not released:
1. The band does not like the way soundboard sounds as they don\'t alway represent the way the band sounded live.
2. Dobz may not have time to deal with a patcher.
3. There was an idea that the band could sell multitrack, matrixes and soundboards, and a fear that nobody would buy a multirack, matrix, or soundboard if it were free on the internet. Audience recordings would always be free to tape and distribute according to the taping policy The band never fully utilized the change in taping poicy to their advantage. I still believe that there is a market for high-quality packaged recordings.
-
I dont know Josh, cant say. I guess every show fluctuates. I really hope you guys get a console. Paypal account anyone? OR the band could sell SBDs mixed by you Josh and use the proceeds for the console!!
Geez Fitz because you must have the same ears as God Almighty....
If you take a look at my massive show list, which I listen to on a day to day basis I think you will notice that I have a lot of experience listening to various sourced shows. So please take your basless assumptions elsewhere.
-
cool.... webster does sound like poop, its an echo chamber... just out of curiosity, when did the shows start sounding like la Big Mack
im not trying to start fight here, but this kid has no idea what he is talking about.
-
to address what joe is talking about...
the matrixes that matt and i used to do were done \'on the fly\'... we had a mixer that brought in the aud (on-stage) mics and sbd feed together, and they were mixed as one before they hit the DAT. this was a very simple way to do a matrix.
unfortunately, there\'s other factors involved here.. you can\'t do the type of matrix i talk about above with mics out in the audience, because there is a delay between what the mics hear, and what\'s coming out of the board. this is the reason we always had mics on stage. by doing this, you lose your audience recording, so if the board feed sucks, and you end up with a shitty matrix, if no one else is taping, you\'re stuck without an audience recording.
as time has passed and i\'ve moved onto computer recording, i run a matrix at pretty much every show i record. the difference is, i use actual audience mics rather than having them on stage, so i always have 2 recordings. the sbd/aud delay is not an issue here, because i\'m recording 2 separate files. afterwards, i can line them up any way i want.
unfortunately, doing a post-mix of a matrix is a timely process, because i\'m not just gonna set it and forget it.. i\'m gonna sit and listen to an entire show, and adjust sbd/aud levels accordingly, then go back and listen again to make sure i\'m happy with it.
another factor, and a reason why you don\'t see more matrixes on disclogic, etc, is that about 80% of the board recordings i get have clipping throughout the entire show, that i have zero control over. this makes the show unlistenable, and is why you\'ll only see aud recordings of these shows.. this goes back to what josh said about different boards - if i get a board where i can\'t control the gain of the output for my recording, it\'s most likely not gonna be usable..
-
cool.... webster does sound like poop, its an echo chamber... just out of curiosity, when did the shows start sounding like la Big Mack
-
I understand AUDs as ALL having a natural echo, but with some of the shows, NYE for instance just sound atrocious. Again, this is not the taper\'s fault or Josh, but rather the room, or as I just learned the fact that the band doesn\'t have a production console yet. It just seems that the quality of taped shows went from cavier to Big Macs.... Again I mean NO OFFENSE and appreciate everyones hard work!!! :)
-
achmmm mmmmm mmm m, so I shall say this.... board taps, like Chris said, do sometimes lack channels depending on the room and equipment I am limited to. Each venue does sound different from the other and there is a limited amount of consistancy I can have on the road as far as room sound quality. Because of these issues, and the fact that we do not have our own production console, the band and I have agreed to not allow board taps. Until I can have the same console to work with every night that allows me the ability to give out quality board taps, I will encourage audience recordings only.
Audience recordings have there ups and downs, however, they do capture the live experience we all enjoy at the show. The "echo" effect is always in audience recordings; popular recordings such as any "phish bootleg" would proove this point. Granted most recordings of their shows in the past years have been in stadiums, however, the same "stadium" effect applies everywhere...simple acoustics class would help...no offense
If ever anyone would like to come to the sound area and talk about taping, I would love to enjoy a nice conversation of geek like sound talk with anyone willing to indulge..... Love you all.....
-
Tapers do a lot of things differently. Many folks including myself DO NOT like to color the music in any fashion. For example when I record or do post work I only add gain. Some folks will do a lot of post production fixing levels, equalizing etc. which is fine but my goal is more of an archival process as Chris stated what you heard while at the show. Some tapers normalize, equalize etc etc to suit their musical tastes or their ears which you can do as well.
i dont want to color the audio, but i will do a lot to them in protools before splitting the tracks. i will fix the levels sometimes if there are major inconstencies, but thats usually only if some kind of problem happened and it needs to be corrected. i will sometimes EQ slightly if necessary. if the low end is way too much on my montiors i will bring it down a little. it depends on the venue and the recording. I also separate L+R and set their levels indivdually because its impossible to get them that precise at the show. after that i will always use the L2 to master the final mix.
I make sure the recording is optimized to sound best on my monitors because thats the most important thing to me. its really important to some tapers to keep it completely raw, so what they recorded off the mics is exactly whats goes out for trade, but i dont see the point in doing that when i can make it sound just a little bit better.
-
kndm\'s who is the bass player in your avatar? It looks like the bass player from Nektar...
-
If the issue is with the bands taping policy of No Boards I understand what you are saying but know that many matrix recordings have been and are still being done. I guess if they are using it to set the typical AUD apart from the disclogic stuff it makes sense it just means a longer wait and a few bucks.
Dobz and the band are very accomodating when they can be. If you were there early and wanted to run a matrix I dont see it as being an issue they will just ask that the show doesn\'t get bit torrented etc. they might even use it for their stuff and give you a nod.
The policy is pretty standard in taping circles. It is usually so the soundman isn\'t getting bothered by folks wanting to plug in and having top worry about some **** turning on phantom power and frying the soundboard (which has happen to some very big acts)
Bands like the radiators always have a patchbay at shows so you can come up and plug in but that is very very very rare in general and nowadays almost unheard of.
-
no not god the band.
wich in our world is all we need.
their music their rules!
How\'s that better?
yes. if you had posted that the first time i would not have wasted valueable time deciphering that sentence that could have been better spent listening to the breakfast!
:wah: ChrisFitz breakin my balls!!! wow!;)
-
kindm\'s, I would but unfortunately I STILL wouldn\'t be able to make a matrix recording. I think it\'s a bad business move on the bands behalf.
I dont mean to sound unappreciative to the tapers. I really do applaud everyone for their hard work. I just want the best for the band, like many of you do.
-
Was that rule sent here on stone from God himself? I hope said rule gets morphed into something more appealing to my earholes.
perhaps buy a recording rig which allows you to make matrix recordings and then you can record exactly how your ears like to hear music. This is usually what gets folks to jump in and join the tapers
Tapers do a lot of things differently. Many folks including myself DO NOT like to color the music in any fashion. For example when I record or do post work I only add gain. Some folks will do a lot of post production fixing levels, equalizing etc. which is fine but my goal is more of an archival process as Chris stated what you heard while at the show. Some tapers normalize, equalize etc etc to suit their musical tastes or their ears which you can do as well.
A lot of the tapers in the Breakfast community adhere to the same ideas as I do but that doesn\'t mean they have to, your recording you can do with it what you want. I leave the mix up to Dobz
-
no not god the band.
wich in our world is all we need.
their music their rules!
How\'s that better?
yes. if you had posted that the first time i would not have wasted valueable time deciphering that sentence that could have been better spent listening to the breakfast!
-
Was that rule sent here on stone from God himself? I hope said rule gets morphed into something more appealing to my earholes.
perhaps buy a recording rig which allows you to make matrix recordings and then you can record exactly how your ears like to hear music. This is usually what gets folks to jump in and join the tapers
-
no not god the band.
wich in our world is all we need.
their music their rules!
How\'s that better?
-
no not god the band wich in our world is all we need their music their rules
we need punctuation too. just a little bit though.
-
no not god the band wich in our world is all we need their music their rules
-
Was that rule sent here on stone from God himself? I hope said rule gets morphed into something more appealing to my earholes.
-
Well they\'re not allowed sooooooo.......................
-
It would be nice if folks had options. A huge part of getting the boys out their is shows. I for one know if I was a n00b I\'d want a good, solid, clean recording. I just feel a lot of the AUD recordings have a lot of echo to them, which leads to certain parts (mainly bass and keys) being washed out at times. I can understand the band not wanting SBDS out there once they play the theater circuit, but until that day comes.....MATRICES OR MATRIXES.... BRAH
-
^^I gotta get a copy of that newtown show.
your right not the greatest from the band but there were a couple gems I dug the WUIAC from that night
-
The few times I made it out to tape the band this year I was very happy with the results.
I was much more active at the begining of the year. I sold my pre-amp so I am currently w/o a full rig.
I am with Chris I prefer the AUD recordings but of course I\'m biased as I am 1 of the folks recording.
My best b-fast recording was either Beardslee in May or maybe Strangecreek (same weekend weird) I wouldnt say the were the best performances from the band but the recordings came out great although beardslee was out of control.
Newtown hall was a great sounding room but again not the greatset from the band.
-
I was just listening to some old shows and I realized just how much I **** miss the matrix recordings. Was there something added to the bands taping policy concerning SBDS. All I know is a lot of the rooms they\'ve been playing recently have not been kind to the DAUDS. I\'m hoping this will change...lord how I miss those boards!!!
I like many of the older recordings!
-
i\'d rather have a matrix than a board, but usually an aud over a matrix (unless the matrix is done really well). the show i caught for nye this year sounded *great* in the room, but since there was a last minute scramble to get anyone to tape, we ended up with boards. after having one of the greatest nights ever (my favorite band un-broke-up AND practiced!!!), i simply can\'t re-listen to the show because its so painful to the ears. small room boards = no bass, minimal drums, way heavy vocals and distant guitar.
that being said, chris, you have made some very nice tapes this year! but a board matrix of some of the better shows wouldn\'t have sucked! ;)
-
Actually, could be either. From dictionary.com:
ma?trix (https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FJPG%2Fpron.jpg&hash=cbd23f95db8dea323afa74e819d8c946469ea38b) (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dmatrix) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (m(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Famacr.gif&hash=ad1f4726d83a822b3693c7368daca55254aca069)(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Fprime.gif&hash=71f41f9d91024f240470947aa729e08dcc4a3e2a)tr(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Fibreve.gif&hash=5054e90cf757e0a0657d0819dd1a7e2283d1c812)ks)
n. pl. ma?tri?ces (m(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Famacr.gif&hash=ad1f4726d83a822b3693c7368daca55254aca069)(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Fprime.gif&hash=71f41f9d91024f240470947aa729e08dcc4a3e2a)tr(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Fibreve.gif&hash=5054e90cf757e0a0657d0819dd1a7e2283d1c812)-s(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Femacr.gif&hash=121cb4e8c784c3d0c5e3c82cf4a86427987379a8)z(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Flprime.gif&hash=b4ea7e275fea688f19ecd77ea7c8bec282531ba1), m(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Fabreve.gif&hash=c3050196d3d968b4ba3709b43e43a14fc435c0ed)t(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Fprime.gif&hash=71f41f9d91024f240470947aa729e08dcc4a3e2a)r(https://thebreakfast.info/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Fgraphics%2FAHD4%2FGIF%2Fibreve.gif&hash=5054e90cf757e0a0657d0819dd1a7e2283d1c812)-) or ma?trix?es
-
matrices
-
different strokes for different folks....
Hoping for some Matrixes...
-
What I love about those recordings is the fact that you can hear each band member equally.
thats the reason why i am happier with the audience recordings now more than i was a few years ago. the mix is the room is usually good, so the recordings will be good.
-
Nothing compares to those matrix recordings. What I love about those recordings is the fact that you can hear each band member equally. I\'m sure it\'s my own preference in this case, but I really wish there were some better sourced shows for the more recent stuff.
-
I think that the band alonmg with the said tapers are working on a Disc Logic project.
soundboards arent allowed for tapers anymore. they havent been allowed for 2 years, but some have still gotten out. i guess any great show with a matrix or multrack recording will be considered for disclogic, but it doesnt seem like the band is going out of the way to put stuff up there because there are only 2 shows up there and they are over a year old.
i have been ready to buy stone church from disclogic. where the hell is it? i dont think as many people will buy them if they cant be released soon after the shows.
-
i dont see why people like dry sounding sbds when dobz usually has it sounding great in the room. i would rather have it sound the way it did at the show.
I agree for the most part, with the execption of some of the stuff Dobz does record and mix down.
But I love to hear the crowd and the infamous "whistler" whoever that might be ;)
-
really?? dave?
soundboard recordings arent allowed to be released ... and vallo has been a little out of commission for regular taping :(
-
All I know is a lot of the rooms they\'ve been playing recently have not been kind to the DAUDS. I\'m hoping this will change...lord how I miss those boards!!!
maybe you should get some better speakers....
i was happy with all the shows i taped in 2005 except for the webster show when dobz was away. the sound was great last year and it got better as the year went on. i thought my recordings were especially good at all porters 6/10 and after, all iron horses, lionsden 6/3, toads 7/1. there werent really any audience recordings i was unhappy with in 2005.
a lot of times people prefer soundboards because they sound cleaner. i taped breakfast at the middle east in 2004. i was the only taper and i walked in as the band was getting on stage. my only option for taping was to plug into the board really quick and hit record. i got a clean signal, but the only channels that were really going through the board were the keys, vocals, and a little bit of guitar. the drums were low in the mix and the bass was not really even there, but people were still telling me it was one of my best recordings.
the signal was clean, but not everything was there. i really couldnt even listen to it because it sounded so dry and it was missing some of the channels. no one really noticed that though. i dont see why people like dry sounding sbds when dobz usually has it sounding great in the room. i would rather have it sound the way it did at the show.
-
That would be nice.
I wish disclogic had a subscription service. Hell, I wish EVERY legal download website had a subcription service (unlimited dlds for 30 bucks a month)...
-
I think that the band alonmg with the said tapers are working on a Disc Logic project.
-
I was just listening to some old shows and I realized just how much I **** miss the matrix recordings. Was there something added to the bands taping policy concerning SBDS. All I know is a lot of the rooms they\'ve been playing recently have not been kind to the DAUDS. I\'m hoping this will change...lord how I miss those boards!!!