thebreakfast.info
General Discussions => Spunk => Topic started by: FrankZappa on August 06, 2005, 04:36:18 am
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About 6,000 people, including hundreds of aging bomb survivors, crowded into Nagasaki\'s Peace Memorial Park, just a few hundred yards from the center of the blast, for a solemn remembrance and moment of silence.
Nagasaki Mayor Iccho Itoh then had some angry words for the leaders of the nuclear powers, and especially the United States.
\'\'We understand your anger and anxiety over the memories of the horror of the 9/11 terrorist attacks,\'\' he said. \'\'Yet, is your security enhanced by your government\'s policies of maintaining 10,000 nuclear weapons, of carrying out repeated sub-critical nuclear tests, and of pursuing the development of new \'mini\' nuclear weapons?\'\'
violence just leads to more violence and everyone worrying about whose stick is bigger. just get rid of them all and make a statement for peace. I think we have enough of everything else to blow the **** out of any aggressors.
kind of off the subject but not really. i got the day off from work because RI still celebrates VJ Day= Victory Over Japan.
You Bastard!
I would figure the people who actually have jobs would be more upset.
me too, but I guess I am the only one outraged by this. So, have you worked the last two days?
i have.....both of my jobs!
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About 6,000 people, including hundreds of aging bomb survivors, crowded into Nagasaki\'s Peace Memorial Park, just a few hundred yards from the center of the blast, for a solemn remembrance and moment of silence.
Nagasaki Mayor Iccho Itoh then had some angry words for the leaders of the nuclear powers, and especially the United States.
\'\'We understand your anger and anxiety over the memories of the horror of the 9/11 terrorist attacks,\'\' he said. \'\'Yet, is your security enhanced by your government\'s policies of maintaining 10,000 nuclear weapons, of carrying out repeated sub-critical nuclear tests, and of pursuing the development of new \'mini\' nuclear weapons?\'\'
violence just leads to more violence and everyone worrying about whose stick is bigger. just get rid of them all and make a statement for peace. I think we have enough of everything else to blow the **** out of any aggressors.
kind of off the subject but not really. i got the day off from work because RI still celebrates VJ Day= Victory Over Japan.
You Bastard!
I would figure the people who actually have jobs would be more upset.
me too, but I guess I am the only one outraged by this. So, have you worked the last two days?
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About 6,000 people, including hundreds of aging bomb survivors, crowded into Nagasaki\'s Peace Memorial Park, just a few hundred yards from the center of the blast, for a solemn remembrance and moment of silence.
Nagasaki Mayor Iccho Itoh then had some angry words for the leaders of the nuclear powers, and especially the United States.
\'\'We understand your anger and anxiety over the memories of the horror of the 9/11 terrorist attacks,\'\' he said. \'\'Yet, is your security enhanced by your government\'s policies of maintaining 10,000 nuclear weapons, of carrying out repeated sub-critical nuclear tests, and of pursuing the development of new \'mini\' nuclear weapons?\'\'
violence just leads to more violence and everyone worrying about whose stick is bigger. just get rid of them all and make a statement for peace. I think we have enough of everything else to blow the **** out of any aggressors.
kind of off the subject but not really. i got the day off from work because RI still celebrates VJ Day= Victory Over Japan.
You Bastard!
I would figure the people who actually have jobs would be more upset.
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kind of off the subject but not really. i got the day off from work because RI still celebrates VJ Day= Victory Over Japan.
You Bastard!
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kind of off the subject but not really. i got the day off from work because RI still celebrates VJ Day= Victory Over Japan.
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What person can\'t fly an American flag because other are offended? I really would like to know who this coward is.
I went to school in Amherst, and UMass is one of the 10 most liberal schools in the nation (it was officially ranked, it\'s not from my own analysis). While I learned a lot of interesting stuff there, I also observed so much garbage from the extreme left (and Mike Deary, I wasn\'t referring to you in my previous post nor am I classifying you as extreme left).
The town of Amherst had so many residents that were "offended" by the American flags displayed on the main road that runs through town that they took them down. The student governing council at UMass had a majority that felt the U.S. flag shouldn\'t be displayed at student government meetings unless all the flags of the world were represented, so no one would be left out. This the only place were that kind of crap goes down. I\'d like to move to a muslim nation and then tell them I\'m offended because they\'re not flying the American flag.
I didn\'t really call you ou in my post was just pointing some facts out. Not sure why you chose to use my real name but ces\'t la vive. Anyway as for the Amherst situation, 1 word GAY. This is the USA if they can\'t handle free speech then thats their problem. I hate Hypocrasy. Thats really my main enemy. I find it very difficult to traverse this world of ours and stay true to that. I excersise hypcoracy all the time bu t itry really hard not to.
If you want free speech then that means eevryone from the hate monger to the peacenik. I hate when so called "liberals" try to stomp on that why also pretending to be its champion. Only when they agree with what they say. Same holds true for the right as well but the Dems pretend to be the inclusive party of all folks.
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Thank You
seems very interesting
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About 6,000 people, including hundreds of aging bomb survivors, crowded into Nagasaki\'s Peace Memorial Park, just a few hundred yards from the center of the blast, for a solemn remembrance and moment of silence.
Nagasaki Mayor Iccho Itoh then had some angry words for the leaders of the nuclear powers, and especially the United States.
\'\'We understand your anger and anxiety over the memories of the horror of the 9/11 terrorist attacks,\'\' he said. \'\'Yet, is your security enhanced by your government\'s policies of maintaining 10,000 nuclear weapons, of carrying out repeated sub-critical nuclear tests, and of pursuing the development of new \'mini\' nuclear weapons?\'\'
Where did you get this?
any links to articles or more about it?
http://www.nytimes.com
under the international news/ asia pacific section
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About 6,000 people, including hundreds of aging bomb survivors, crowded into Nagasaki\'s Peace Memorial Park, just a few hundred yards from the center of the blast, for a solemn remembrance and moment of silence.
Nagasaki Mayor Iccho Itoh then had some angry words for the leaders of the nuclear powers, and especially the United States.
\'\'We understand your anger and anxiety over the memories of the horror of the 9/11 terrorist attacks,\'\' he said. \'\'Yet, is your security enhanced by your government\'s policies of maintaining 10,000 nuclear weapons, of carrying out repeated sub-critical nuclear tests, and of pursuing the development of new \'mini\' nuclear weapons?\'\'
Where did you get this?
any links to articles or more about it?
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About 6,000 people, including hundreds of aging bomb survivors, crowded into Nagasaki\'s Peace Memorial Park, just a few hundred yards from the center of the blast, for a solemn remembrance and moment of silence.
Nagasaki Mayor Iccho Itoh then had some angry words for the leaders of the nuclear powers, and especially the United States.
\'\'We understand your anger and anxiety over the memories of the horror of the 9/11 terrorist attacks,\'\' he said. \'\'Yet, is your security enhanced by your government\'s policies of maintaining 10,000 nuclear weapons, of carrying out repeated sub-critical nuclear tests, and of pursuing the development of new \'mini\' nuclear weapons?\'\'
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What person can\'t fly an American flag because other are offended? I really would like to know who this coward is.
I went to school in Amherst, and UMass is one of the 10 most liberal schools in the nation (it was officially ranked, it\'s not from my own analysis). While I learned a lot of interesting stuff there, I also observed so much garbage from the extreme left (and Mike Deary, I wasn\'t referring to you in my previous post nor am I classifying you as extreme left).
The town of Amherst had so many residents that were "offended" by the American flags displayed on the main road that runs through town that they took them down. The student governing council at UMass had a majority that felt the U.S. flag shouldn\'t be displayed at student government meetings unless all the flags of the world were represented, so no one would be left out. This the only place were that kind of crap goes down. I\'d like to move to a muslim nation and then tell them I\'m offended because they\'re not flying the American flag.
Al;
What nationalities were these residents? Students or townspeople?
Did they hang a Massachussetts flag at these meetings? To tell you the truth, I think we had an American, Massachussetts and Gay Pride flag out in front of Dartmouth.
I expect this kind of response at a major university like UMass and schools of that nature. I wonder if Yale does this since so many students there are active in politics.
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<< dips in and quickly outta this thread.
if i post,itll get closed.
He\'s alive!
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<< dips in and quickly outta this thread.
if i post,itll get closed.
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What person can\'t fly an American flag because other are offended? I really would like to know who this coward is.
I went to school in Amherst, and UMass is one of the 10 most liberal schools in the nation (it was officially ranked, it\'s not from my own analysis). While I learned a lot of interesting stuff there, I also observed so much garbage from the extreme left (and Mike Deary, I wasn\'t referring to you in my previous post nor am I classifying you as extreme left).
The town of Amherst had so many residents that were "offended" by the American flags displayed on the main road that runs through town that they took them down. The student governing council at UMass had a majority that felt the U.S. flag shouldn\'t be displayed at student government meetings unless all the flags of the world were represented, so no one would be left out. This the only place were that kind of crap goes down. I\'d like to move to a muslim nation and then tell them I\'m offended because they\'re not flying the American flag.
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Frankly, I would hate to live in a country that didn\'t have panty wearin\' liberals or extreme militant conservatives. It\'s the exteme\'s pushing things to get progress in their direction that moves this country. The extreme\'s work their asses off to sway the silent majority. It\'s actually a pretty neat system of checks and balances.
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you know what. I never really stated my opinion on the matter simply stated some facts that get overlooked by a lot of people. I might be liberal but that has nothing to do with the truth. the truth is what it is. Just don\'t **** on my head and tell me its raining.
classic!!
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you know what. I never really stated my opinion on the matter simply stated some facts that get overlooked by a lot of people. I might be liberal but that has nothing to do with the truth. the truth is what it is. Just don\'t **** on my head and tell me its raining.
If you fail to grasp all the facts then its hard to have a real understanding.
In a country that claims to treat everyone as equals as I try do, I have no problem pointing out the hypocracy. If trouble comes a knocking I have no issue dealing with it. It is just that I like to know what I am getting in to and why. WWII isn\'t something I am bashing. We all know what happened as far as the Nazis. The japanese have their atrocities as well. But you would be naive to think we didnt have ours as well.
Think of the human toll. 200,000 people in a flash then all the toll on the folks that survive. Thats some serious **** right there. Am I glad i live in the country I do. HELL YES.
And I am certainly not bashing the country at all. Just pointing out facts. You can make up your own mind about what they mean to you.
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The part of the analysis I hate from really liberal people is that they never have anything nice to say about this nation, whether it is in regards to contemporary time or history. We are always the villains, and there is some expression of mistrust.
Have we ever done anything right?
Want to know why the Native American societies lasted for 10,000+ years in America (please spare me the American Indian destruction stories, I\'m already well aware of them)? Because they had a strong oral tradition of handing down stories of the greatness of their people. We live in the greatest country yet so many people living under its freedoms and high standard of living trash it every chance they get. How long are we going to last if no one ever has any pride and tries to destruct everything that is great? I can almost guarantee that we won\'t be around as long as the Native American cultures were.
Some people can\'t even fly an American flag anymore because too many people are offended, yet we have to cater to every other group imaginable.
Can we do anything wrong?
What person can\'t fly an American flag because other are offended? I really would like to know who this coward is.
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Well you make a good point about the Pacific Fleet being so devastated.
I guess it is to what extent you are willing to believe people will go to do things.
If you consider that we didnt delcare War on Germany until Dec.11, 1941
and We Declared War on Japan Dec. 8th 1941.
Look after WWI the US was moving towards a power position in the world. Then the Graet Depression hits and the US is bascially right back to the rural country that it was then. It wasn\'t until WWII that the US started to gets its feet economically again. FDR was trying the "New Deal" some of it was working and some of it wasn\'t. So would a president sacrifice peoples lives for the good of the economy is the bigger question and I think I can can get a resounding YES from a lot of folks.
Hawaii wasn\'t made a state until Aug. 21st, 1959 ! So I gues it comes down to what you think people are capable of
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The part of the analysis I hate from really liberal people is that they never have anything nice to say about this nation, whether it is in regards to contemporary time or history. We are always the villains, and there is some expression of mistrust.
Have we ever done anything right?
Want to know why the Native American societies lasted for 10,000+ years in America (please spare me the American Indian destruction stories, I\'m already well aware of them)? Because they had a strong oral tradition of handing down stories of the greatness of their people. We live in the greatest country yet so many people living under its freedoms and high standard of living trash it every chance they get. How long are we going to last if no one ever has any pride and tries to destruct everything that is great? I can almost guarantee that we won\'t be around as long as the Native American cultures were.
Some people can\'t even fly an American flag anymore because too many people are offended, yet we have to cater to every other group imaginable.
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for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier. also, while pearl harbor was full of "military targets", we were NOT at war with japan at the time. it was a cowardly act plain and simple. the bombing, while horrific, was done while under a declaration of war and after a fair warning was given to the japanese government. while the 200,000 killed is most certainly a tragedy, this was done to save AMERICAN lives. we certainly could and would have defeated the japanese, but at what cost to ourselves. Truman had to make one of the hardest decisions that ever had to be made in the history of the world, and while villified by even his own countrymen at the time, his staure in history continues to grow IMO. W couldn\'t hold trumans dick for him to take a ****. paul is correct, germany would have used this weapon very soon if we hadn\'t. end of story!
i also visited pearl harbor three years ago. while standing on the signing deck of the USS Missouri, i looked out over the harbor to see three Japanese warships tied up. they were there for some multi national military excercise, but i cain\'t begin to explain how SEReal that was. bottom line......Truman was a hero!!!
I know I am jumping in on this late in the game but as far as the whole Pearl harbor argument goes as it being cowardly. I would remind you that many folks believe this to be a huge piece of propaganda. There is A LOT of evidence that suggests that FDR knew that the invasion was coming and allowed it to happen. Also as Americans we ALWAYS forget what was happening in Asia at the time. The US was flexing its muscles and was "colonoizing" territories in the region. At the Same time Japan was doing the same thing. It was inevitable that our 2 nations were gonna bump heads. So it wasn\'t like we were sitting there doing nothing and these big bad japanese came out of nowhere and bomb our naval base in Hawaii. I know thats what the history books say but it didn\'t really go down like that. Our country has always been right in the thick of it, most folks don\'t want to admit it becuase they loose that Moral High Ground they think they have as being American.
Americans call a cowardly attack "Pre-Emptive War" so it sounds better.
So as for the argument about Germany would have used the Bomb if they had it. Maybe they would have but we will never know and that argument has nothing to do with us dropping 2 of them on Japan. Not 1 but 2. It wasn\'t 200,000 solders that died, it was 200,000 women, children, aged, disabled, solders, etc etc etc.
So did it save American servicemen lives, Sure it did. It is probably why I am typing on this computer but lets not kid ourselves. After the first bomb was dropped and the damage seen (for the 1st time I might add) and several days later it was determined we should drop another knowing full well what was gonna happen.
I bet you that we wouldn\'t have dropped 2 of them on white folks or even mediterrean people. I doubt we would have dropped any on Germany for that matter. Too many allies around Germany not to mention they look like us. Japan was a fairly isolated "testing" ground for this weapon. No other nations close by so to speak. They aren\'t white God fearing Folk and they are Extremists.
you make a number of good points mike and i\'m sure there is a lot of validity to what you\'ve said. the part that i cain\'t get around is, that FDR "allowed this to happen". do you honestly expect me to believe that he would allow a very large percentage of his navy to be destroyed at a time in history when WWI was still fairly fresh in everyones memory and when germany and japan were attacking the rest of the world, merely to sway public opinion so he could join up against them. i cain\'t buy that one. not for a second. i\'m sure that we knew something and i\'m sure that some people **** up, but i cain\'t believe that FDR knew anything of the sort or he would have done something to try and prevent it. of this, i personally have no doubt.
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for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier. also, while pearl harbor was full of "military targets", we were NOT at war with japan at the time. it was a cowardly act plain and simple. the bombing, while horrific, was done while under a declaration of war and after a fair warning was given to the japanese government. while the 200,000 killed is most certainly a tragedy, this was done to save AMERICAN lives. we certainly could and would have defeated the japanese, but at what cost to ourselves. Truman had to make one of the hardest decisions that ever had to be made in the history of the world, and while villified by even his own countrymen at the time, his staure in history continues to grow IMO. W couldn\'t hold trumans dick for him to take a ****. paul is correct, germany would have used this weapon very soon if we hadn\'t. end of story!
i also visited pearl harbor three years ago. while standing on the signing deck of the USS Missouri, i looked out over the harbor to see three Japanese warships tied up. they were there for some multi national military excercise, but i cain\'t begin to explain how SEReal that was. bottom line......Truman was a hero!!!
I know I am jumping in on this late in the game but as far as the whole Pearl harbor argument goes as it being cowardly. I would remind you that many folks believe this to be a huge piece of propaganda. There is A LOT of evidence that suggests that FDR knew that the invasion was coming and allowed it to happen. Also as Americans we ALWAYS forget what was happening in Asia at the time. The US was flexing its muscles and was "colonoizing" territories in the region. At the Same time Japan was doing the same thing. It was inevitable that our 2 nations were gonna bump heads. So it wasn\'t like we were sitting there doing nothing and these big bad japanese came out of nowhere and bomb our naval base in Hawaii. I know thats what the history books say but it didn\'t really go down like that. Our country has always been right in the thick of it, most folks don\'t want to admit it becuase they loose that Moral High Ground they think they have as being American.
Americans call a cowardly attack "Pre-Emptive War" so it sounds better.
So as for the argument about Germany would have used the Bomb if they had it. Maybe they would have but we will never know and that argument has nothing to do with us dropping 2 of them on Japan. Not 1 but 2. It wasn\'t 200,000 solders that died, it was 200,000 women, children, aged, disabled, solders, etc etc etc.
So did it save American servicemen lives, Sure it did. It is probably why I am typing on this computer but lets not kid ourselves. After the first bomb was dropped and the damage seen (for the 1st time I might add) and several days later it was determined we should drop another knowing full well what was gonna happen.
I bet you that we wouldn\'t have dropped 2 of them on white folks or even mediterrean people. I doubt we would have dropped any on Germany for that matter. Too many allies around Germany not to mention they look like us. Japan was a fairly isolated "testing" ground for this weapon. No other nations close by so to speak. They aren\'t white God fearing Folk and they are Extremists.
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for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier.
yea, I caught that one myself watching the discovery channels special... pretty dumb mistake on my part. I planned on editing it next time I was on the board (now) but was caught out!
that\'s ok paul...it was easier for me since i was actually there and all!
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for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier.
yea, I caught that one myself watching the discovery channels special... pretty dumb mistake on my part. I planned on editing it next time I was on the board (now) but was caught out!
As far as the germans attacking america, I looked online and the closest I could find was this. (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=8&url=http%3A//www.historynet.com/wwii/reviews/wwiireview0505-1/&ei=qnD2QsGnH7fmaauF8ZQO)
I actually learned this story from a history channel show on the secret german aircraft of ww2. I was unable to find the name of it from their web site. Most of this bio-chemical work was done by one man in the german army, but I can\'t remeber his name. I\'m sure if I could I could def find you a source. sorry.
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we are all adults
thats news to me.
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for the record
the USS Indianapolis delivered the bomb, not the USS Arizona as was stated earlier. also, while pearl harbor was full of "military targets", we were NOT at war with japan at the time. it was a cowardly act plain and simple. the bombing, while horrific, was done while under a declaration of war and after a fair warning was given to the japanese government. while the 200,000 killed is most certainly a tragedy, this was done to save AMERICAN lives. we certainly could and would have defeated the japanese, but at what cost to ourselves. Truman had to make one of the hardest decisions that ever had to be made in the history of the world, and while villified by even his own countrymen at the time, his staure in history continues to grow IMO. W couldn\'t hold trumans dick for him to take a ****. paul is correct, germany would have used this weapon very soon if we hadn\'t. end of story!
i also visited pearl harbor three years ago. while standing on the signing deck of the USS Missouri, i looked out over the harbor to see three Japanese warships tied up. they were there for some multi national military excercise, but i cain\'t begin to explain how SEReal that was. bottom line......Truman was a hero!!!
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as long as you don\'t attack someone personally, then I say it\'s all good.
Right, and if you have a stance on somthing, then back that **** up dont just come in making generalized statements and such...we are all adults, we can have adult conversations.
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Nothing is wrong with a healthy debate on the boards, **** I learned some stuff I didn\'t know since then. In fact I\'d rather debate politics/religion on a board then in face.
as long as you don\'t attack someone personally, then I say it\'s all good.
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Nothing is wrong with a healthy debate on the boards, **** I learned some stuff I didn\'t know since then. In fact I\'d rather debate politics/religion on a board then in face.
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Also, please read my post more clearly. I stated earlier, Nothing good has come out of A war. Iraq has as much to do with this subject as anything else. I am asking you what will be the positive outcome of this war, in respect to your analysis of the economy? Gas is already upsurd.
This thread has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq. When you realized you could no longer defend yourself on the WW2 discussion, you decided to jump into an unrelated and less convincing conflict that is publicly unpopular.
WW2 was worth defeating the stronghold of tyranny and hatred. I guess you would prefer to live in the world that would have resulted from a pacifist stance by the U.S. in the early 1940\'s.
LOL
I didn\'t change the subject because I couldn\'t defend my stance. My original statement to Ant-Man was that nothing good comes out of a War. (This is why I mentioned Iraq, because according to your theory/opinion, You stated that a strong economy is a good thing that comes out of War) Plain and Simple. That is my opinion, just as you said that a strong economy was a good thing, your opinion (even though both can be argued with enough research into the topic).
I agree with you that WWII was worth defeating Tyranny and hatred in the world. I am just arguing that a strong economy is not a good enough reason for me, to believe that something good comes out of war. Because, how do we know that if a couple of things at that time changed or did differently, the same outcome would have come to be.
I don\'t know, you say it is an analysis but it is more of generalizations that you make. Tell me how did WW2 cause a stronger economy. You seem to know more about economy then I do, please you specfic examples and not just economic generalizations. (I\'m being completely ser and not a dick)
As a side note, gas prices have nothing to do with middle east tensions - it\'s a supply and demand struggle.
Now that the economies of China, India and others in the Pacific Rim are becoming more expansive (and thus competetive) they are competing with the existing financial superpowers (U.S. etc.) for the oil reserves (demanding more) - creating a strain on global supply. If you\'ll read it, I\'ll grant you access to my online Wall St. Journal subscription - may help you compete against people that work in the investment industry on economic issues.
Please.
on another note, Why is it when 2 people have a discussion on this board people always think we are fighting. I like Al Z and I just wanted to know what he knows and thinks.
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If you want to read something really scarey though, look at what the plans were for the attack on new york hitler planned with biological warfare.
one example: Infest nats and flies with random diseases like smallpox and plague. freeze them. load them into a bomb and fly to america in a sub orbital path (keeping them frozen). When it reached the target, drop bomb over city. the only explosion was to break the sides off after x amount of time, releasing the bugs. As they fell and the temperature rose, they would thaw and go down to the city to bite humans, spreading germ warfare instantaniously.
(400TH POST!)
:thumbsup:
Where can I get this? It interests me...I started to read Mein Kampf in High school but never got past the 3rd or so chapter...I was always busy...Not in a bad way or anything, just interested about history n stuff.
WHoa! Just found the book online, go google Mein Kampf it is like the first webpage listed.
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wow. I go out for the afternoon and al and spacey turn into freddie and leith! (just kidding guys, debate is always healthy. I agree with parts from both of you, but its way too much to go through).
I\'m gonna have to check out that book. Off to la biblioth?que!
obviously bad has come from war but so has good. Its just that the balance is usually skewed. Examples:
1 how many hundreds of thousands of people had to die in order to remove hitler from power. Hitler needed to be removed, but the cost was extreme. Depending on your views, arguments will ensue these types of points.
2 It has been argued that because of the test that the nazis did on human life (put a person in sub zero climate for as long as possible and then try to resucitate them using different materials for example) have helped curent medical practice, because we know the limitations of many things now that society would otherwise never allow us to study on humans. (the answer the germans found was that hot water worked best, cold water worked worst)
IMO, war does have goods, but the bads severly outweigh them.
the germans (sickly) actually did have a price on human life. In their records, they calculated the average legth a person could be worked before the \'to death\' point was reached, and then they counterbalanced the cost to keep the person alive during that time (food, shelter, ect.). It was not much.
Zappa, Hilter knew what those bombs could do I bet. The US knew that Hitler had intentions to us them.
this fear, written in a letter by Einstein to the president was what lead to the chicago development which was later classified as manhatten project. Einstien knew that hitler had the concept, and as a result would (and was) working on his own. It was only dropped because supplies were low and hitler decided he wanted several known weapons like the v2 as opposed to 1 large weapon of unknown destruction.
If you want to read something really scarey though, look at what the plans were for the attack on new york hitler planned with biological warfare.
one example: Infest nats and flies with random diseases like smallpox and plague. freeze them. load them into a bomb and fly to america in a sub orbital path (keeping them frozen). When it reached the target, drop bomb over city. the only explosion was to break the sides off after x amount of time, releasing the bugs. As they fell and the temperature rose, they would thaw and go down to the city to bite humans, spreading germ warfare instantaniously.
(400TH POST!)
:thumbsup:
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Also, please read my post more clearly. I stated earlier, Nothing good has come out of A war. Iraq has as much to do with this subject as anything else. I am asking you what will be the positive outcome of this war, in respect to your analysis of the economy? Gas is already upsurd.
This thread has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq. When you realized you could no longer defend yourself on the WW2 discussion, you decided to jump into an unrelated and less convincing conflict that is publicly unpopular.
WW2 was worth defeating the stronghold of tyranny and hatred. I guess you would prefer to live in the world that would have resulted from a pacifist stance by the U.S. in the early 1940\'s.
As a side note, gas prices have nothing to do with middle east tensions - it\'s a supply and demand struggle. Now that the economies of China, India and others in the Pacific Rim are becoming more expansive (and thus competetive) they are competing with the existing financial superpowers (U.S. etc.) for the oil reserves (demanding more) - creating a strain on global supply. If you\'ll read it, I\'ll grant you access to my online Wall St. Journal subscription - may help you compete against people that work in the investment industry on economic issues.
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the connection between Iraq and WWII, is that we were/are in both wars for the economics, not the human rights violations that our government uses to get us to rally around the flag.
the real irony is that the kids from the poor neighborhoods that die in these wars, whether it be Spacey\'s grandfather, my uncle, or Casey Sheehan are the ones that benefit the least from these wars.
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Al, Loved having this debate as it make me smarter but I have to run out. Have a good night.
Also, please read my post more clearly. I stated earlier, Nothing good has come out of A war. Iraq has as much to do with this subject as anything else. I am asking you what will be the positive outcome of this war, in respect to your analysis of the economy? Gas is already upsurd.
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I would like you all who flame me every chance you get to STOP reading to deep into my posts.
Again, you think anything good is coming out of this Irag war?
I can\'t and you can\'t put a price on peoples lives. I guess Al can though ;)
If everyone misunderstands what you are saying, than maybe you need to learn how to express yourself more clearly.
What does my analysis of WW2 have to do with Iraq? Don\'t bring up something unrelated to the subject at hand.
Did I place a price on people\'s lives? Nope - just stated that the world is a better place after the tyranny and hate of WW2 was defeated.
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i don\'t know, there\'s a lot of greed out there. I think it would make a lot more folks ok with fighting these battles if the wealthy (who benefit the most from these wars), would get out from behind their desks and pick up a gun.
My point exactly. My grandfather had to fight in the pacific. Hypothetically, he lost his life but my grandmother gets a job in a factory, my mother and her 2 brothers lose a father but its cool because my grandmother has a job.
In the long run, I can see how war can get a country out of debt but the reality is that so many people have to put up the risk. It\'s like our congress and many politicians out there, only 1 member of congress has a son/daughter in the military.
As the middle class suffers because it is our brothers and sisters and friends who lose their lives, the rich sit back and make more money, but at least they are kind enough to give me a job! I\'d rather be poor and struggling with my entire family then to have my brother (who is in the Air Force) be put into a box and sent home. That\'s just me. The super wealthy may produce jobs and that may be productive but it just doesn\'t make up for the dead.
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i don\'t know, there\'s a lot of greed out there. I think it would make a lot more folks ok with fighting these battles if the wealthy (who benefit the most from these wars), would get out from behind their desks and pick up a gun.
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Well, first off let me clear this misunderstanding. When I stated, "How funny it would be when all the rich people started to die from bad ****", I didn\'t mean it literally, like ha ha or I would have put a smiley face after it as such, :). I would like you all who flame me every chance you get to STOP reading to deep into my posts. I will not clarify my earlier statement as I feel it has been to long.
Another thing, Ant-Man and myself are friends and good ones at that. He knows me personally and understands my "scolding" and breaking his balls.
Now,
Again, you think anything good is coming out of this Irag war? Please, tell me and tell all the families that are losing members what good it is. Although, I may need a primer course on economy, I don\'t think I am far off.
Here is one thing that a war solves, debt. That is it. War will get a country out of debt.
It is tough and wrong to debate this because so much will need to be typed and all of that.
I wasn\'t trashing the rich either, see statement earlier. I can\'t answer your questions at living in a time when I was around to experience what really was taking place. Although, I can make educated guesses at what it will be like.
I think what he is trying to say, regardless of all the outcomes, still 200,000 human lives were at steak.
in so many words...
I can\'t and you can\'t put a price on peoples lives. I guess Al can though ;)
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I think what he is trying to say, regardless of all the outcomes, still 200,000 human lives were at steak.
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I guess the bright side is that Japan has since become a great friend and key trading partner in the decades that followed the bombs. They probably wouldn\'t have built one of the world\'s strongest economies if we didn\'t play a major role in the restructuring/nation building after the conclusion of the war.
It all happend for the good in the end.
I wouldn\'t say that entirely. Nothing good has ever come out of a war. Think of all the casualties and now tell me that because a few rich people became more wealthy of it, it is good. (I know what you mean Ant-Man)
Although our economy is very important and has made this country and a few select families extremely wealthy, I can not bring myself to believe that hundreds of thousands of lives lost can bring out any good in the end.
(disclaimer: I generally don\'t scold people on .info and try to keep relations as amicable as possible, though I think one is warranted in this situation. Otherwise, I\'ve got nothing but love for the Spaceboy and he\'s been a great fan and strong advocate for our favorite band).
Nothing good has come out of war? I guess you believe the world was a safer, more peaceful place before and during WW2? We didn\'t go to war with Japan to become wealthy, though both countries have experienced major economic benefits as a result of the strong alliance we forged in the years following the conclusion.
Would you prefer to live in the world that may exist if we didn\'t participate WW2? Freedom has costs associated with it.
Japan has had a vibrant economy over the last half century, a place they wouldn\'t necessarily be in without our help. When an economy is healthy, jobs are created across the spectrum, from low-paying wages, middle class wages to the upper end of senior management. Regardless of who reaps the greatest rewards, almost every social class benefits from a strong economy. Spacey, I think you may have a narrow view of economic prosperity. You could use a primer on economics before you make any more foolish, narrow-minded statements (yes, I say this to the person who thought it would be funny if rich people died from **** poisoning). You can trash rich people all you want, though I\'m sure these "evil creeps" wouldn\'t wish a poisoned **** death on you. When you do finally get a job, it will most likely be the result of a productive rich person expanding headcount at his/her firm, so maybe then you will realize the ripple effect of a strong economy.
In the future, please think before you impulsively respond to every thread with a thoughtless comment (though we do appreciate most of your analysis as a history grad)
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Bring it!
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i\'ll give ya my copy
that good, huh!
bring it down to Fuzzybox along with Fuzzybox.
i jumped around a lot because some of the stories just didn\'t interest me. but some of the chapters a mindblowing.
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I guess the bright side is that Japan has since become a great friend and key trading partner in the decades that followed the bombs. They probably wouldn\'t have built one of the world\'s strongest economies if we didn\'t play a major role in the restructuring/nation building after the conclusion of the war.
It all happend for the good in the end.
I wouldn\'t say that entirely. Nothing good has ever come out of a war. Think of all the casualties and now tell me that because a few rich people became more wealthy of it, it is good. (I know what you mean Ant-Man)
Although our economy is very important and has made this country and a few select families extremely wealthy, I can not bring myself to believe that hundreds of thousands of lives lost can bring out any good in the end.
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I guess the bright side is that Japan has since become a great friend and key trading partner in the decades that followed the bombs. They probably wouldn\'t have built one of the world\'s strongest economies if we didn\'t play a major role in the restructuring/nation building after the conclusion of the war.
It all happend for the good in the end.
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I guess the bright side is that Japan has since become a great friend and key trading partner in the decades that followed the bombs. They probably wouldn\'t have built one of the world\'s strongest economies if we didn\'t play a major role in the restructuring/nation building after the conclusion of the war.
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From what I read, the U.S. was planning a major land invasion or Japan as an alternative to the bombs. Experts say the likely scenario from that event could have been millions of casualties.
Absolutely right. One of the reasons for the US to decide to drop the bombs instead of invading was that the casulities that would be inflicted by a land invasion. The thought was to drop the bomb and save American lives because as we learned in Vietnam, we knew not much about the Japanese interior.
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From what I read, the U.S. was planning a major land invasion or Japan as an alternative to the bombs. Experts say the likely scenario from that event could have been millions of casualties.
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i\'ll give ya my copy
that good, huh!
bring it down to Fuzzybox along with Fuzzybox.
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i\'ll give ya my copy
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read a book called "peoples history of the us", completely altered my view of the us. history is written by the victors
First thing you learn in history is that "history is written by the victors". What a historian is suppose to be able to do after completing his studies is to view every event analytically and with suspicion. Half of the history we learn in school is false. Go read other nations history of us and it will be in great conflict of ours.
I will have to look into that book.
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Slim, as this is true, the "official" stance of the United States going into WWII was to be isolationists. Like I said later in the last post, we were partially attacked to keep us occupied with Japan so Hitler could have moved more freely in Europe.
Hitler had all intentions to do all kinds to the nation/world anyways, so us interfering was a good thing. Zappa, Hilter knew what those bombs could do I bet. The US knew that Hitler had intentions to us them.
Slim, I wouldn\'t ago into any indepth debates on history with Spacey dude. Just a friendly warning. :)
(400TH POST!)
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read a book called "peoples history of the us", completely altered my view of the us. history is written by the victors
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Right, the question here is, how many lives in turn did we save by bombing them?
You also must remember we were isolationists up to this point. We had no intention of getting involved in the war.
gotta disagree with ya Space. We covertly had our hands in many cookie jars. The japanese didn\'t just attack us outta unprovoked brutality.
Slim, as this is true, the "official" stance of the United States going into WWII was to be isolationists. Like I said later in the last post, we were partially attacked to keep us occupied with Japan so Hitler could have moved more freely in Europe.
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Right, the question here is, how many lives in turn did we save by bombing them?
You also must remember we were isolationists up to this point. We had no intention of getting involved in the war.
gotta disagree with ya Space. We covertly had our hands in many cookie jars. The japanese didn\'t just attack us outta unprovoked brutality.
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pearl harbor movie =pfffffffft!
tora, tora, tora = :thumbsup:
there is huge debate on both sides about how much was known and not communicated, such as the 14 point document sent to the embasy and how it was taken. pearl harbor movie does get alot historically acurate (such the cook that fought back and was honored was real), but alot was also done with the love story. tora is much better though. (tora, tora, tora, or tiger, tiger, tiger in japanese was the code phrase to begin the attack).
random stuff:
hiroshima was chosen because the weather was better over that city than the other days target.
the pilots found out about the size of the bomb and what the destruction would be just hours before takeoff. They had to remove lots of equipment from the plain to make it lighter so that they could hold enough fuel for the entire flight.
one of the crew had to arm the bomb while in flight, one wrong move would have detonated it on the plain. all this on a bomber that is shaking violently.
the first step in making the bomb was to create a controlled fission reaction out of an atomic pile. This was done at university of chicago. 2 grad students had to stand on top of it ready to enclose the system incase the reactor could not be controlled, they were called the sucide squad. another assistant had a long pole which acted as a rod in the chamber. They held one end of it and had to push/pull it into the box in hopes that this slowed/ sped up the process. They were sucessfull and celebrated with red wine, because it slows the actions of radation poisoning in the body.
USS Indianapolis, which brought the bomb went down in shark infested waters on the return after being hit by a torpedo and most of the men died not from the sinking, but from being in shark infested waters too long. why? because due to the top secret nature of the mission, they were never reported to have gone out of or into either port, and were not missed for never comming back. excellent movie = mission of the shark
When the bomb was created, they didnt know its capasity. 2 of the leading theories on what would happen:
1. the blast will crack the surface of the earth and shatter the planet into so many pieces that it will blow itself apart.
2. the blast will be so large that it will blow the atmosphere (air) off of the planet into space, creating a vaccum on the surface just like the moon or any other celestial body with no atmosphere, resulting in instant death of all creatures on the planet that relied on oxygen to survive.
these were presented by the scientist who developed the bomb and they were promptly dismissed so that the testing could go on. they then protested again that a bomb should not be dropped on civilians, but into the ocean just west of japan followed quickly by a threat to end the war or we will drop the next one on civillians.
This also was dismissed because the president wanted to have all the bombs he could at his disposal, as he threatened that we had a whole arsenal of them.
the same 2 threats about distroying the earth were again raised when the h-bomb was developed, but were again dismissed.
in vegas, they used to announce the times of the bomb tests so that tourists could go up into the mountains and picnic while watching the pretty mushroom clouds.
while testing (there is still footage of this) the government put OUR OWN SOLDIERS at different distances from the ground zero mark with random amounts of protection. Some were only in their uniforms. All were told to watch the explosion that would happen soon and then they would be interviewed. Most of them died.
in the mid 90\'s we almost destroyed the planet due to miscommunications in russia. A test going on in the netherlands was mis-judged to be an american nuclear missle aimed at russia. the nuclear football (bomb activation briefcase that is always with the president of russia and USA) was opened for the first time. Luckily, they hesitated. If not, they would have retaliated by attacking america, which we would have seen as first strike and attacked them. It is postulated that this type of war would make the entire northern hemipshere unlivable. The \'missle\' was actually a test rocket, which the soviets had been told about but the paperwork was never sent to the missle command because it was deemed not improtant to them.
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Right, the question here is, how many lives in turn did we save by bombing them?
By the standards of thinking and reasoning then, we saved the entire country from another invasion by the Japanese. We also scared the crap out of every other nation in the world. You also must remember we were isolationists up to this point. We had no intention of getting involved in the war. That is why we were attacked. To pull us into the war. It also gave Hitler room to worry less about us going after Germany.
However, no amount of human life is worth saving when you murder 200,000 innocent people. Not only did we murder these people, we posioned the entire area for decades with radiations. When we dropped the bomb we had no idea how destructive it was and the potential it really had.
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Right, the question here is, how many lives in turn did we save by bombing them?
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Spacey said it best below. The Jap\'s hit a military target.
We killed somewhere around 200,000 citizens.
The debate scholars are having now: how many lives did the bombs really save, in terms of bringing an abrupt end to WWII. There are 2 widely different opinions on this subject.
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The Pearl Harbor movie is a love story and has been made Hollywood acceptable. I doubt there is much truth to the movie and reality. The Japanese did catch the Americans off guard and that is what made it so horrific.
However, there has been plenty of mentioning that (what I have found in my studies of history) the Pearl Harbor bombings were known going to happen. The government and the leaders of the Pacific fleet had intercepted on a couple of occassions the word that the Japanese were planning an attack on the harbor. They say that it was allowed to slip through because the government and the powers that be, wanted to "test" the A-Bomb. And, as it happened, end the war with Japan.
Ant-Man; You are right about visiting Pearl Harbor and getting the sense of the lives lost. Much of what you see at Pearl Harbor has not been touched since that incident. There are still ships in the harbor that house the bodies of the soldiers that were on the ships. It is a living and breathing memorial. One that when you visit, you will be able to relive that terrible day.
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Spacey/zappa, what did you guys think about the Pearl Harbor movie? Me having no history background, I wouldn\'t know if it portrayed the story well or accurate?..As I was reading the numbers for the Japanese I thought to myself from what I saw in the movie, the Americans where caught off guard so they couldn\'t really do much to the Japanese? When you visit Pearl Harbor as I did a couple of years ago, you really feel the effect it had on us.
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The most horrific incident in the history of the world.
A response for the invasion of America.
The Japanese picked a military target at Pearl Harbor. Our response was to hit these 2 cities on the suspicion that they were manufacturing cities for the military. Because we couldn\'t get close to Tokyo, we chose these 2 cities. Which was believed to be not heavily populated. We also didn\'t the true effect of the Atomic Bombs. Amazing how far we really haven\'t come.
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Ya I bet there are ser numbers for Pearl Harbor.
here ya go:
comparison:
hiroshima buildings total 90,000
lost 28,000 (31.1%)
Pearl Harbor
Ships 162
sunk 8 (4.9%)
damaged 12 (7.4%)
Sunk/Damaged 20 (12.34%)
I don\'t have totals for aircraft, so I cant calculate that, but 12% is less than 31%.
Raw stats:
at least one of many source (http://www.privatehenrykalinowski.org/html/statistics.html)
Pearl harbor:
U.S. Casualties
Navy
Killed 2,008
Wounded 710
Total 2,718
Army
Killed 218
Wounded 364
Total 582
Marines
Killed 109
Wounded 69
Total 178
Civilians
Killed 68
Wounded 35
Total 103
Total US Casualties 3581
Killed 2403
Wounded 1178
Total 3581
Total number of ships present - 162
Sunk 8
Damaged 12
Battleships
Sunk 4
Damaged 4
Destroyers
Damaged 3
Cruisers
Damaged 3
Minecraft
Sunk 1
Auxilaries
Sunk 3
Damaged 2
Aircraft
Lost 169
Damaged 159
Japanese losses
couldnt find much, but most reports say that their losses were few. 2 miget subs were lost, one sinking and one beaching itself. The beached subs\' 2 operators became americas first POW\'s
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Wow, my bros birthday today. Will have to tell him.
There were 90,000 buildings in Hiroshima before the bomb was dropped; only 28,000 remained after the bombing. Of the city\'s 200 doctors before the explosion; only 20 were left alive or capable of working. There were 1,780 nurses before-only 150 remained who were able to tend to the sick and dying.
Ya I bet there are ser numbers for Pearl Harbor.
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August 6
1945 Atomic bomb is dropped on Hiroshima
On this day in 1945, at 8:16 a.m. Japanese time, an American B-29 bomber, the Enola Gay, drops the world\'s first atom bomb, over the city of Hiroshima. Approximately 80,000 people are killed as a direct result of the blast, and another 35,000 are injured. At least another 60,000 would be dead by the end of the year from the effects of the fallout.
U.S. President Harry S. Truman, discouraged by the Japanese response to the Potsdam Conference\'s demand for unconditional surrender, made the decision to use the atom bomb to end the war in order to prevent what he predicted would be a much greater loss of life were the United States to invade the Japanese mainland. And so on August 5, while a "conventional" bombing of Japan was underway, "Little Boy," (the nickname for one of two atom bombs available for use against Japan), was loaded onto Lt. Col. Paul W. Tibbets\' plane on Tinian Island in the Marianas. Tibbets\' B-29, named the Enola Gay after his mother, left the island at 2:45 a.m. on August 6. Five and a half hours later, "Little Boy" was dropped, exploding 1,900 feet over a hospital and unleashing the equivalent of 12,500 tons of TNT. The bomb had several inscriptions scribbled on its shell, one of which read "Greetings to the Emperor from the men of the Indianapolis" (the ship that transported the bomb to the Marianas).
There were 90,000 buildings in Hiroshima before the bomb was dropped; only 28,000 remained after the bombing. Of the city\'s 200 doctors before the explosion; only 20 were left alive or capable of working. There were 1,780 nurses before-only 150 remained who were able to tend to the sick and dying.
According to John Hersey\'s classic work Hiroshima, the Hiroshima city government had put hundreds of schoolgirls to work clearing fire lanes in the event of incendiary bomb attacks. They were out in the open when the Enola Gay dropped its load.
There were so many spontaneous fires set as a result of the bomb that a crewman of the Enola Gay stopped trying to count them. Another crewman remarked, "It\'s pretty terrific. What a relief it worked."