thebreakfast.info
General Discussions => Spunk => Topic started by: jocelyn on September 15, 2007, 03:53:55 pm
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Live free or die...PFFFTTT!! :sigh:
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Because the state doesn\'t make any $ from it and they would have to pay the $ to EZ-Pass. But ooops guess what I bet that the state already spent the $ they got from selling tokens.
See you make a better argument than I did. They gave folks 4 months to use the tokens, not exchange them or get a refund. Thats what I have a problem with. NH had no problem taking these peoples $ when they sold the tokens, because it served the states interests. The state saw a small opportunity to make even more $ on the same folks for the same service.
Exactly.
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just another example of the man keeping a brother down.
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So then by your definition, if I went to a carnival and bought 20 tickets for rides and only used 15, I should be able to get a refund for the 5 tickets? Doesn\'t happen, and no one complaigns about it. The bottom line is that in principle, the guy is right, but for $0.50, he took it way too far in my opinion.
Your logic is faulty. By definition a carnival is a traveling amusement show. The definition convey\'s the temporary nature of it\'s presence. Therefore attendee\'s purchase tickets with full knowledge of their limited usefulness.
The NH token system has been around since 1955. Not really a one night stand. A 68 year MA resident, with a vacation home in NH would undoubtedly purchase batches of tokens for trips.
However, this man\'s fight has nothing to do with the dollar value.
In Sept. 05, NH announced the EZ pass system giving people 4 (off season) months to use remaining tokens. This doesn\'t give vacationers much time to use up prepaid tokens.
This man is pointing out a poorly thought out plan by the state. Why wouldn\'t they allow people to exchange tokens for EZpass credits?
Because the state doesn\'t make any $ from it and they would have to pay the $ to EZ-Pass. But ooops guess what I bet that the state already spent the $ they got from selling tokens.
See you make a better argument than I did. They gave folks 4 months to use the tokens, not exchange them or get a refund. Thats what I have a problem with. NH had no problem taking these peoples $ when they sold the tokens, because it served the states interests. The state saw a small opportunity to make even more $ on the same folks for the same service.
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One could argue that if NH gave that much notice, it might have made sense for the man to purchase tokens on a yearly basis rather than in one large purchase. You can argue both sides.
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So then by your definition, if I went to a carnival and bought 20 tickets for rides and only used 15, I should be able to get a refund for the 5 tickets? Doesn\'t happen, and no one complaigns about it. The bottom line is that in principle, the guy is right, but for $0.50, he took it way too far in my opinion.
Your logic is faulty. By definition a carnival is a traveling amusement show. The definition convey\'s the temporary nature of it\'s presence. Therefore attendee\'s purchase tickets with full knowledge of their limited usefulness.
The NH token system has been around since 1955. Not really a one night stand. A 68 year MA resident, with a vacation home in NH would undoubtedly purchase batches of tokens for trips.
However, this man\'s fight has nothing to do with the dollar value.
In Sept. 05, NH announced the EZ pass system giving people 4 (off season) months to use remaining tokens. This doesn\'t give vacationers much time to use up prepaid tokens.
This man is pointing out a poorly thought out plan by the state. Why wouldn\'t they allow people to exchange tokens for EZpass credits?
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I have used tokens years after at the same amusement places.
broseph - just because they put up with your shenanigans at chuck e. cheese doesnt mean that should work at a state toll. although it seems unfair, the state of new hampshire needs to keep sticter polices than a giant pizza eating rat.
Actually considering the state took this mans $ for the express purpose of using its roads. I have a hard time seeing how they can invalidate that now. Although the point is moot, the judge ruled and the ruling stands in the criminal proceedings. I still think the guy was right but that doesn\'t really mean anything.
Also I would argue that just because they told everybody they would no longer take the tokens doesn\'t mean jack. He paid the State of NH $ for those tokens. They are in essence a receipt of goods paid. He already paid the tolls in advanced as did anyone else who purchased tokens. So basically folks who buy tokens are loaning the state $ in advance of services. they are defaulting on that
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NH is not ****. taints.
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They did give notice- it was in the papers and they posted signs on the tollbooths like two months in advance. But I still think one should have been able to use tokens until they run out, or get a refund.
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After re-reading the original article, something didn\'t make sense. The cop issued the citation, then told him to pay the $0.50. That doesn\'t make sense - if the cop told him to pay, it was probably before he wrote the citation. When the man didn\'t pay, the cop had to act. It also sound as if the governing body, who made the decision not to use the tokens anymore, gave public notice - it\'s just that this guy either didn\'t read the paper or watch the news or just plain didn\'t care.
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I have used tokens years after at the same amusement places.
broseph - just because they put up with your shenanigans at chuck e. cheese doesnt mean that should work at a state toll. although it seems unfair, the state of new hampshire needs to keep sticter polices than a giant pizza eating rat.
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Yoday- if the guy paid the fine, he would still have the record. He was already arrested. He just didn\'t feel like giving the state another dollar. At least if he went to prison he is costing the state (well, the taxpayers) money.
I was just arrested recently. I paid a fine and didn\'t do jail time. But the arrest is still on my record.
And yes, he took if way farther than you or I would, but I still say good for him.
I still have some unused tokens.
Also, I\'m pretty sure that in Boston, even though they have switched over to the Charlie Card, they still accept tokens for the T if you still have some.
(just an example... somewhat unrelated I know)
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So then by your definition, if I went to a carnival and bought 20 tickets for rides and only used 15, I should be able to get a refund for the 5 tickets? Doesn\'t happen, and no one complaigns about it. The bottom line is that in principle, the guy is right, but for $0.50, he took it way too far in my opinion.
Depends on the carnival. Is it a limited engagement ? usually if you go back to the same carnival or follow it they will honor their tickets. Same goes for permanent carnivals. Sometimes they put time restrictions on them or date them but that is different.
I have used tokens years after at the same amusement places.
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So then by your definition, if I went to a carnival and bought 20 tickets for rides and only used 15, I should be able to get a refund for the 5 tickets? Doesn\'t happen, and no one complaigns about it. The bottom line is that in principle, the guy is right, but for $0.50, he took it way too far in my opinion.
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I would have to agree with the guy.
If they phased them out then there should have been an opportunity for people to have their $ refunded and the tokens bought back.
This is really a case of the State of NH refusing to accept a form of payment after it gladly took this persons money for the form of payment.
They are claiming all is well because they told people they would be phased out. Well thats all well and good but what if you bought a bunch of tokens. More than you could actually use in your normal commute. You purchased the tokens in good faith and now the state is saying thanks for the $ but your SOL.
If there was no opportunity for the tokens to be exchanged for the cash equivalent then I def. side with the guy.
It is the same idea with EZ PASS. Say the state decided that they will no longer take EZ-Pass. Lets say you have $30.00 in your ez-pass account. and lets say your state says in 60 days no more ezpass. And lets also say you have EZ-Pass for ease of use when traveling and do not need it for commuting. So now your choice is to either drive a bunch in the next 60 days or kiss your $30.00 goodbye. Same idea with the tokens. Tokens = EZ Pass before EZ Pass. the state issued tokens to ease traffic and make accounting easier now they no longer accept the tokens they issued as a valid form of payment. Thats BS imho. They already accepted the cash for the tokens so the tokens have a value. They should have allowed people to use them until they were gone.
Just another way for the state to double dip on tolls
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He is 68 years old I don\'t think he cares about it going on his permanent record.
He might not be able to get that job as the starter at his local public golf course. It\'s off to Walmart to become a greeter. Shoulda just paid the fine you old dope!!
this guy is an idiot, all he had to do to avoid this mess was give the guy 2 quarters rather than 2 tokens. but he refused. and he could have just paid the $150 fine, that he can obviosly afford having a summer home in nh and all. just trying to keep yahoo tourists like this guy out of the state.
for the record, NH is the ****
You\'re missing the point. He paid for tokens. He should have a right to use them... unless NH offered to buy back unused tokens when they decided to phase them out?
ROCHESTER ? Toll evader Thomas Jensen took the defense stand Friday asserting his innocence and the state\'s guilt for blocking his use of tokens after they expired.
He maintained he had a contract with the state, which was "morally and legally obligated to continue accepting" the tokens after he paid for them. He questioned a state trooper and attendants from the Spaulding Turnpike\'s Rochester toll plaza, where the case originated on the afternoon of March 23, 2006.
He also said the state had a chance to "start reversing" its descent into the moral "abyss" that came around the time the Old Man on the Mountain crumbled to the ground four years ago.
But it was to no avail.
Jensen, 68, was found guilty of a single charge of theft of services, a Class B misdemeanor, for insisting tokens would suffice despite the state no longer accepting them as of January 2006.
He admitted he knew the state was no longer accepting tokens, but could not recall if he purchased his rolls before or after the state stopped selling them six months earlier in preparation of E-ZPass.
Rochester District Court Judge Susan Ashley endorsed Trooper First Class James Downey\'s recommendation that Jensen pay a much lighter fine, one usually assessed for violations and toll evaders.
Downey said he was unable to initially charge Jensen, a retired IBM employee, with toll evasion because of a loophole in state law that was later rectified by the Legislature.
Jensen had his own idea of justice, promising not to use tokens in exchange for receiving credit for his unused tokens to his Massachusetts-based FAST LANE account, among other conditions.
The judge, having already ordered court security to remove Jensen\'s active cell phone from the courtroom, wasn\'t having it.
She assessed a $150 fine, including the penalty assessment.
Jensen said the case was about principle, not paying a fine.
Even before the trial got underway, Jensen vowed to bring a civil or class-action lawsuit against the state for breaking the contract and violating his rights.
"It will not end here," he said, fiddling with a roll of tokens.
One attorney asked to assess Jensen\'s prospects in a civil case said there was little chance for success.
"It would be difficult to advance that argument that there was a contract, particularly one that lasted forever," said city attorney Dan Wensley. "That state took what was designed to provide adequate notice that the ... tokens being honored were going to have a specific time limit in which you had to present them, and having known that the state probably satisfied whatever obligation it had."
Jensen, who lives in Braintree, Mass. but has a rarely-used lakeside home in Ossipee, kept the court in session for about 1 1/2 hours, more than once striking the ire of the judge.
Despite the verdict being handed down, Jansen was still asking the judge questions as she exited the courtroom.
When he insisted earlier the court hear testimony on how tokens are a form of gift certificates, the judge sternly said: "This is not a gift certificate case. This is irrelevant ... I will not hear further testimony on the issue."
Jensen maintained tokens are a form of gift certificate because he paid for something and, in return, was promised services without an expiration date
Toll Attendant Kimon Lalas, on his day off, recalled how he yelled for a northbound Jensen to pay acceptable fare.
"He insisted he pay in tokens," he said.
Jensen, who was driving a Chevy Blazer, said the two tokens ? the pre-E-ZPass accepted amount at a 50-cent toll ? "would have fulfilled the requirements."
But they were no longer accepted, he was told.
"But I did give you two tokens," he said.
"Other than validity of the tokens I did meet the requirements," he later said.
Jensen questioned Omer Ouellette, another attendant, if his purchase of tokens constituted a contract, one that lasts "in perpetuity."
"It\'s a sale. I don\'t know about a contract," said Ouellette, who went back to work after the trial.
Downey, the trooper, addressed the contract question this way: "If they\'re not signed they\'re not worth the paper they\'re written on. ... If I go and buy a candy bar at the store, I don\'t have a contract with that store."
Only if the state went bankrupt would the contract be invalidated, Jensen said.
Bill Boynton, spokesman for the Department of Transportation, said the Attorney General\'s office said the tokens "were a defined discount program with a defined end date" dependent on changes to law.
Jensen appeared prepared for his court date. But he left room for improvisation, at one point asking a reporter if he wanted to take the stand and share his "thoughts and opinions" about the state\'s move away from tokens.
A tall man who described himself as honest after working all his life, Jensen dressed in a blue suit and displayed a gentlemanly demeanor. He repeatedly apologized for being hard of hearing and even invited one of the toll attendants, while under oath, out for coffee after the proceedings.
Downey wouldn\'t call the proceedings bizarre. "It was different," he said. "I\'ve never had it before. I don\'t anticipate having it again."
Boynton said other turnpike users have made arguments similar to Jensen\'s, "but I don\'t remember it getting this far."
Jensen didn\'t say if he used cash, coins or his FAST LANE transponder to get through the tolls on his way to court. But he did say he didn\'t use tokens.
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yes, all citizens who stand up for their rights are idiots. i totally agree.
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this guy is an idiot, all he had to do to avoid this mess was give the guy 2 quarters rather than 2 tokens. but he refused. and he could have just paid the $150 fine, that he can obviosly afford having a summer home in nh and all. just trying to keep yahoo tourists like this guy out of the state.
for the record, NH is the ****
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He is 68 years old I don\'t think he cares about it going on his permanent record.
Hilarious that he never bothered to mention it to his wife though.
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And an arrest/jail record can screw up your future.
I understand his issue as I live in a state where there\'s a toll in pretty much every county, but I\'d rather pay the fine that spend time in jail - but that would only be my decision.
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yea, but this way it\'s screwing mass that much more. How much did it cost to keep and feed him as an inmate for 3 days. Now subtract 50 cents from that amount.
dissidence is patriotic
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No offense (because I understand where the guy is coming from), but if it were me, I\'d pay the $150 rather than do jail time and have that on my record. But that\'s just me.
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That guy is my new hero.
:that: :thumbsup:
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f nh. //
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just trying to keep the mass-holes out. ;)
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righteous.
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That guy is my new hero.
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Man Jailed Over 50-Cent Toll
Mass. Resident Considering Lawsuit
POSTED: 6:49 am EDT September 14, 2007
UPDATED: 4:22 pm EDT September 14, 2007
ROCHESTER, N.H. -- A Massachusetts man who insists his New Hampshire highway tokens are still valid just spent three days in jail because he insisted on using two tokens to pay a 50-cent toll.
Thomas Jensen, 68, of Braintree, said the state broke a contract with him and everyone else who bought tokens by refusing to accept them after January of last year. He was convicted of theft of services for continuing to use tokens after they were phased out.
??I gave the state of New Hampshire money for the tokens, and I expect to be able to use them,?? Jensen told The Patriot Ledger.
Jensen was driving to his New Hampshire summer home when he tried to pay the 50-cent toll with tokens, as he had always done. The toll worker refused to take them and a state trooper at the plaza gave Jensen a citation.
??(The trooper) said, ?Just give him the 50 cents.? I said, ?I did, I gave him two tokens,??? Jensen told the newspaper.
Monday, a judge told Jensen he could pay a $150 fine, do community service or go to jail for three days. He choose jail.
??Over my dead body was I going to give the state another dollar for the tolls,?? Jensen said.
He told the newspaper that the jail was a clean, new facility and that the food was better than expected. He said he spent his time in jail talking with other inmates.
Jensen never told his wife he was in jail. Beverly Jensen said she only found out when asked by a television news reporter.
After being set free Thursday, Jensen said he\'s considering a lawsuit. He said the state should just accept tokens until they\'re all used up.
??I just get offended by people trying to do me wrong,?? he said. ??They stole the value of these tokens from me.??
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/14112594/detail.html