Today\'s reason why religion is stupid.

[jocelyn]

I actually skipped a good portion of this thread. I don\'t like arguing religion and/or politics. But someone in there said something about extremists being the voice of Islam. I agree, but feel this is the media\'s fault for portraying it in such a way. I also feel that our country is very racist in the manner of religion. This country was built on freedom of religion (I think, I hate history, its history, its done, its over), and our citizens are hypocrites for feeling that Muslims are evil because they interpret the extremists as what the religion is. Islam, whether Americans want to believe it or not, is one of the most popular religions in the world. There are gazillions of Muslims who do not fit the profile, but people overlook that because alls they ever hear and read about is extremists and their terror.

I don\'t think it\'s the media\'s fault entirely. They have become the voice of Islam because they are speaking the loudest. They are the ones who make themselves public. The millions of moderate Muslims are very quient about their dissent with the extremists, if it exists. This is a thing I have yet to understand... why do more Muslim religious leaders not condemn Islamic extremism when they MUST be aware of the damage they are doing to the world\'s view of their religion? Part of the deep silence on the part of the moderate Muslims I\'m sure is due to terror... no one wants to cross radicals and risk getting their head blown off. But I don\'t think we can blame the media entirely for covering stories of violence and radicalism. I think it is partly up to the non crazy lunatic Muslims to speak for themselves and make themselves heard... just like it\'s up to you and I to defy the image that THEY probably have of Americans. You wouldn\'t depend on THEIR media to accurately depict US, if we never make ourselves heard, would you?

[antbach]

i don\'t even vote, i am one of those "my single, solitary self can\'t make a difference"

[Wolfman]

I\'m not quite with Wolfman on this - not all are equally to blame... I was baptised a Christian and attended a Church school until the age of 11, by which time I had already worked out what a load of crap organised religions are.

boombox, you\'re exactly with me on this one.  My whole point is your last sentence up there.  I just can\'t believe you figured it all out at age 11, that\'s pretty sharp.  Judaism started my brainwashing at age 11 and it took me until 16 to snap out of it.  The only thing I disagree with is trying to make a case of how any one religion has beat up another one disproportionately.  (Especially using the crusades as an example...that is so 12th Century!)  Look, they\'ve all done 1,000,000 things to each other.  They\'re all equally guilty.  And when you pay your temple membership dues or put money in the collection plate, you\'re supporting the latest rounds of suicide bombers, rioters, abortion-clinic shooters.  We\'d be so much better off if none of this had ever existed.

[kindm's]

As soon as 1 realizes that organized religion is simply a way / means of controlling people you are much better off.

Prior to any centralized society it was religion that kept people in check. It was the religious leaders who decided who had property rights. Most of the religions loose all credibility in my eyes when they start talking about excluding people. Namely women. Most of the strict interpretations of the big 3 (Islam, Judism, Christianity) basically say women are worthless and should be shunned at best.

That just proves that the rules so to speak were made up by a bunch of men (not God). I find it very interesting also that all of the 3 major religions were all developed in the same part of the world. Like all of the folks in China where somehow uninportant to God that he decded to foresake them all. I mean if in ancient times you want to get a message out on a wide scale you go to where the most people are and that would have been China. In those years they were already having natural disasters that were wiping out millions. So we are supposed to believe that God only cares about the people of a very specific region.

You would think if God had a message for all of his/her children he/she wouldn\'t be hindered by borders or geography etc. He / she would just deliver said message on to us. Why would God speak only to specific folks ? How is that efficent ? how does that get his / her teaching to the masses w/o being co-opted for exploitation.

If you look at Islam it has a much more daily impact on folks lives. They are supposed to pray 5 times a day (thats more than most people use the bathroom in a given day). They are always supposed to go to the mosque to do it (I may be incorrect about this) so there is the constant mosque / person interaction. There is very little time away from whatever message is being taught in those places. Good or bad. It would be like if you watched O\'rielly 5 times a day and already had a predisposition to believing what he said. In a very short amount of time your views would be pretty skewed and then they would continually be reinforced through constant exsposure to like minded people.

[boombox]

I\'m not quite with Wolfman on this - not all are equally to blame... I was baptised a Christian and attended a Church school until the age of 11, by which time I had already worked out what a load of crap organised religions are.

boombox, you\'re exactly with me on this one.  My whole point is your last sentence up there.  I just can\'t believe you figured it all out at age 11, that\'s pretty sharp.  

What is even funnier is that for the following three years in high school, I consistently got the highest mark in Religous Studiess, no doubt beause I approached the subject objectively. They begged me to do it as an O level certificicate, bu it clashed with German so it died a death.

[oldnewbie]

how about when a person who survives a major disease ie. cancer, credits their faith for helping them "beat" the disease. do those people seriously think that their faith was stronger than the person who worships god but doesn\'t beat cancer? god weighed all the options and decided to have mercy on me but said fuck you to that guy over there because of his or my faith. if god really has a "plan"....i think he better recheck his notes.

[Spacey]

^^^ good point, wise man

[Wolfman]

how about when a person who survives a major disease ie. cancer, credits their faith for helping them "beat" the disease. do those people seriously think that their faith was stronger than the person who worships god but doesn\'t beat cancer? god weighed all the options and decided to have mercy on me but said fuck you to that guy over there because of his or my faith. if god really has a "plan"....i think he better recheck his notes.

Yeah and forget the doctors who were there with them every step of the way and the people who spent their whole lives researching the treatment methods that helped save them.  Nope, they were saved by a Jewish carpenter who died 2006 years ago.  Ugh.

[leith]

how about when a person who survives a major disease ie. cancer, credits their faith for helping them "beat" the disease. do those people seriously think that their faith was stronger than the person who worships god but doesn\'t beat cancer? god weighed all the options and decided to have mercy on me but said fuck you to that guy over there because of his or my faith. if god really has a "plan"....i think he better recheck his notes.

Sorry to disagree but it has been PROVEN that state of mind is very important to one surviving ANY major trauma.
One\'s faith is a huge way to stay positive and help the body reach a better healing state.
If that person believes that their higher power is helping them so be it.
There is a reason anyone that has a major illness has a religious contact of their choice on the treatment team.

[oldnewbie]

i believe that positive thinking and attitude can be extremely helpful and important....and if faith in god helps a person achieve that healing than that\'s great...whatever gets you there.....but i don\'t believe that god has a damn thing to do about it

[leith]

i believe that positive thinking and attitude can be extremely helpful and important....and if faith in god helps a person achieve that healing than that\'s great...whatever gets you there.....but i don\'t believe that god has a damn thing to do about it

And you have every right to think that.

[Wolfman]

If someone\'s faith in an organzied religion really helps them get through a tough time then I\'m all for it.  The problem is that for every person helped by organized religion, another is hurt.  For every person who gets through a tough day with religion, there is someone else throwing a rock at people becuause of religion.  For every person who uses relgion to help get them through something really traumatic like cancer, another person is killed over religion.  There\'s got to be ways to be spiritual that are simply good and don\'t support these religions that inspire so much violence and hatred.

[leith]

If someone\'s faith in an organzied religion really helps them get through a tough time then I\'m all for it.  The problem is that for every person helped by organized religion, another is hurt.  For every person who gets through a tough day with religion, there is someone else throwing a rock at people becuause of religion.  For every person who uses relgion to help get them through something really traumatic like cancer, another person is killed over religion.  There\'s got to be ways to be spiritual that are simply good and don\'t support these religions that inspire so much violence and hatred.

There are plenty of Nondenominational Christians such as myself that do not support the organized Church but do hold Jesus Christ as their Savior and Higher Power.
I am sure there are many people that use a religion as a guide in their life w/o supporting the organized aspect of said religion.
There are also people that are just spiritual w/ no name to their higher power yet still using the tenets laid out by most of the world\'s religions.
The only difference I have ever really found between all the different major faiths is what they call God.
Most religions @ their core are just guidellines on how to live w/ those around you.
So I think there are ways that people are spiritual w/o organized religion it is just going to take another 1000 years for the cycle to reach the point where organized religion is tossed. Hopefully.

[jocelyn]

If we\'re around that long.

By the way, 3 of the craziest Christians I know go to Nondenominational churches.

I agree witht Seth, the negatives do seem to be equal to the positives.... but it\'s hard to measure something like that. Most of the stories of people helped by religion will probably go unheard because they are small and private and not as dramatic as beating cancer. But then again, I suppose that goes the other way as well...

I actually just realized that I have no desire to talk about this at all. I think what is being said now in this thread has been said a gazillion times... it\'s exahusting... so I\'ma leave this one to you guys. Have fun with it....

[Wolfman]

I agree with Joce, I\'m all set with theological discussion.  I may just add some funny stories from the religious psychos of the world from time to time.

Today\'s story features a freelance priest who goes around to the funerals of slain American soldiers and has his followers cheer their death because "America harbors homosexuals."  So you\'ve got these devasted families at their kid\'s funeral, and hanging out 50 feet away are these weirdos saying how great it is that he is dead.  Well hey, at least we can rest assured that this particular priest isn\'t molesting little boys.

Meanwhile, a gang of patriotic bikers follows around the priest\'s gang to try and block them from the funerals.  I like the bikers...but really folks..no religion, none of this happens.    

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/21/funeral.motorcyclists.ap/index.html

FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- Wearing vests covered in military patches, a band of motorcyclists rolls around the country from one soldier\'s funeral to another, cheering respectfully to overshadow jeers from church protesters.

They call themselves the Patriot Guard Riders, and they are more than 5,000 strong, forming to counter anti-gay protests held by the Rev. Fred Phelps at military funerals.

Phelps believes American deaths in Iraq are divine punishment for a country that he says harbors homosexuals. His protesters carry signs thanking God for so-called IEDs -- explosives that are a major killer of soldiers in Iraq.

The bikers shield the families of dead soldiers from the protesters, and overshadow the jeers with patriotic chants and a sea of red, white and blue flags.

"The most important thing we can do is let families know that the nation cares," said Don Woodrick, the group\'s Kentucky captain. "When a total stranger gets on a motorcycle in the middle of winter and drives 300 miles to hold a flag, that makes a powerful statement."

At least 14 states are considering laws aimed at the funeral protesters, who at a recent memorial service at Fort Campbell wrapped themselves in upside-down American flags. They danced and sang impromptu songs peppered with vulgarities that condemned homosexuals and soldiers.

The Patriot Guard was also there, waving up a ruckus of support for the families across the street. Community members came in the freezing rain to chant "U-S-A, U-S-A" alongside them.

"This is just the right thing to do. This is something America didn\'t do in the \'70s," said Kurt Mayer, the group\'s national spokesman. "Whether we agree with why we\'re over there, these soldiers are dying to protect our freedoms."

Shirley Phelps-Roper, a daughter of Fred Phelps and an attorney for the Topeka, Kansas-based church, said neither state laws nor the Patriot Guard can silence their message that God killed the soldiers because they fought for a country that embraces homosexuals.

"The scriptures are crystal clear that when God sets out to punish a nation, it is with the sword. An IED is just a broken-up sword," Phelps-Roper said. "Since that is his weapon of choice, our forum of choice has got to be a dead soldier\'s funeral."

The church, Westboro Baptist Church, is not affiliated with a larger denomination and is made up mostly of Fred Phelps\' extended family members.

During the 1990s, church members were known mostly for picketing the funerals of AIDS victims, and they have long been tracked as a hate group by the Montgomery, Alabama-based Southern Poverty Law Center\'s Intelligence Project.

The project\'s deputy director, Heidi Beirich, said other groups have tried to counter Phelps\' message, but none has been as organized as the Patriot Guard.

"I\'m not sure anybody has gone to this length to stand in solidarity," she said. "It\'s nice that these veterans and their supporters are trying to do something. I can\'t imagine anything worse, your loved one is killed in Iraq and you\'ve got to deal with Fred Phelps."

Kentucky, home to sprawling Fort Campbell along the Tennessee line, was among the first states to attempt to deal with Phelps legislatively. Its House and Senate have each passed bills that would limit people from protesting within 300 feet of a funeral or memorial service. The Senate version would also keep protesters from being within earshot of grieving friends and family members.

Richard Wilbur, a retired police detective, said his Indiana Patriot Guard group only comes to funerals if invited by family. He said he has no problem with protests against the war but sees no place for objectors at a family\'s final goodbye to a soldier.

"No one deserves this," he said.