Today\'s reason why religion is stupid.

[Wolfman]

There\'s at least 5 stories a day in the news about people getting blown up and buildings being burned on acccount of humanity\'s stupidist concoction ever: religion.  Everyone\'s equally guilty in my eyes...Jews, Christians, Muslims, they\'re all morons.  Here\'s today\'s example:

LAHORE, Pakistan - Thousands of protesters rampaged through two cities Tuesday, storming into a diplomatic district and torching Western businesses and a provincial assembly in Pakistan\'s worst violence against the Prophet Muhammad drawings, officials said. At least two people were killed and 11 injured. Security forces fired into the air as they struggled to contain the unrest in the eastern city of Lahore, where protesters burned down four buildings housing a hotel, two banks, a KFC restaurant and the office of a Norwegian cell phone company, Telenor.

Someone get these people some video games, or the internet, or some pot, anything to keep them stagnant.  It\'s probably just a bunch of dumb teenagers looking for a reason to riot.  But without religion, they would have spent their day in school instead of doing this.  Riots should happen when people are seriously oppressed, not over a cartoon.  These cartoons came out 9 days ago.  It\'s a stupid cartoon.  Get over it losers.

[Spacey]

The Muslims since the middle-ages have shunned the Western Culture. For one reason or another they decided to not evolve as Western cultures became more industrialized and modern.

The whole middle-east is a fucking mess. Fighting battles that have been going on since at least 1187.

[Wolfman]

Another thing... if you\'re not allowed to depict Mohammed, then how the hell do they know what he looks like?  How do they know the picture was of him?  If I draw a picture of my friend Anil or even use a picture of Apu from The Simpsons and write "Mohammed" under it and post it on Muslim Websites, do you think I could start some riots?

[Spacey]

Another thing... if you\'re not allowed to depict Mohammed, then how the hell do they know what he looks like?  How do they know the picture was of him?  If I draw a picture of my friend Anil or even use a picture of Apu from The Simpsons and write "Mohammed" under it and post it on Muslim Websites, do you think I could start some riots?

Do this would cause some serious shit, some serious shit.

[Mamalakabubadaya]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/02/14/pakistan.cartoons.ap/index.html

[Me!]

Another thing... if you\'re not allowed to depict Mohammed, then how the hell do they know what he looks like?

I think it was just the fact that it was a cartoon.  not that that excuses anything

[jocelyn]

It\'s especially ridiculous because of how hypocritical it all is. They can insult any/every other religion, followers of anything other than Islam are infidels,etc... but a silly cartoon is some sort of huge assault on Islam. Come on now guys.

I am glad to hear you guys are following this; I considered starting a thread about it last week but decided against it.

The whole middle-east is a fucking mess. Fighting battles that have been going on since at least 1187.

Don\'t worry, we should have it straightened out soon once we finish spreading democracy through the area. That should put an end to all of the area\'s deep-rooted problems.

[FrankZappa]

I agree with the ya wolf. The argument they are using is from mohamid himself, who would not allow any images made of him or his followers because he thought that it would cause idolitry to him and move people away from the real faith.

That being said, this is not the first time somone has made an image of a man and sad it was mohamad, which have always been ignored for the most part. Why they are still going on this one the way they are is beyond me.

[boombox]

The Muslims since the middle-ages have shunned the Western Culture. For one reason or another they decided to not evolve as Western cultures became more industrialized and modern.

The whole middle-east is a fucking mess. Fighting battles that have been going on since at least 1187.

However, they perhaps have every reason to be p***ed off with Christianity - look at the farce that was the Crusades? If that was Western Culture, no wonder they didn\'t see it as being particularly enlightening - in fact, western "civilisation" was, to a large extent, a giant step back. If you look at it all historically, more of the roots of science and culture come from the Middle East than anywhere else anyway.

As for Islam itself, when you look at it in the context of multitheistic societies prevalent at the time, it did put forward a reasonable case for a code for living. Christian bigots like to say that the tenets of Islam are the same as Christianity, but the majority of Christianity is derivative anyway: most of the major faiths have the same root beliefs and ideals. The initial intentions of Islam were good, but the minority extremists have hijacked Islam for their own ends, in exactly the same way as the West hijacked Christianity to serve its own.

What happened with those cartoons is disgraceful. Their initial publication was nothing other than a childish act guaranteed to raise circulation, an act by people who know full well that to create an image of the Prophet is one of the worst crimes. No respect has been shown to the Islamic community. It doesn\'t matter whether we think such a ban on images is a stupid idea (as I do!): the press has a responsibility to be impartial (fat bloody chance!). If there was a cartoon showing Jesus in a stormtrooper\'s uniform, bayoneting  a Jew, there would be similar disgust (if not more) and the politicians too would join in condemning it. And publishing them again in other papers, knowing the furore it would cause, shows just how low the tabloid press are.

However, I don\'t agree with the way some people have protested. Such actions have done more to damage their cause, than to help it. People have forgotten the reason why they are protesting - it is just the violence which sticks in their minds, further damning the majority of Muslims, who just feel hurt and debased by the actions of these newspapers.

I\'m not quite with Wolfman on this - not all are equally to blame. But the extremist leaders and zealots of most religions are.

And by the way, no I am not a Muslim. I was baptised a Christian and attended a Church school until the age of 11, by which time I had already worked out what a load of crap organised religions are.

[Spacey]

Couldn\'t have said anything better, Boombox.

I wasn\'t really in the position to expand on my thought as I am at work and have to do it in between phone calls.

But, I totally agree.

It\'s especially ridiculous because of how hypocritical it all is. They can insult any/every other religion, followers of anything other than Islam are infidels,etc... but a silly cartoon is some sort of huge assault on Islam. Come on now guys.

I am glad to hear you guys are following this; I considered starting a thread about it last week but decided against it.

The whole middle-east is a fucking mess. Fighting battles that have been going on since at least 1187.

Don\'t worry, we should have it straightened out soon once we finish spreading democracy through the area. That should put an end to all of the area\'s deep-rooted problems.

Yeah, just like that other place in the Middle East that we introduced to Democracy and when the political party, Hamas, I believe won, we got pissed and tried to reverse it.

[jocelyn]

However, they perhaps have every reason to be p***ed off with Christianity - look at the farce that was the Crusades? If that was Western Culture, no wonder they didn\'t see it as being particularly enlightening - in fact, western "civilisation" was, to a large extent, a giant step back. If you look at it all historically, more of the roots of science and culture come from the Middle East than anywhere else anyway.

That\'s bad logic. You can\'t use the Crusades as a reason for Muslims to be pissed off at Christianity NOW. There are plenty of reasons to be pissed at Christianity/Western Culture... but the Crusades just happened too long ago. Yes, you can see where ideas, prejudices, mentalities came from, but, people should evolve. Besides, being pissed off is no excuse to torch buildings.

As for Islam itself, when you look at it in the context of multitheistic societies prevalent at the time, it did put forward a reasonable case for a code for living. Christian bigots like to say that the tenets of Islam are the same as Christianity, but the majority of Christianity is derivative anyway: most of the major faiths have the same root beliefs and ideals. The initial intentions of Islam were good, but the minority extremists have hijacked Islam for their own ends, in exactly the same way as the West hijacked Christianity to serve its own.

Can\'t argue with any of that. It\'s a shame the way Muslim fascists have become the voice of their religion. It\'s also a shame that fundamentalist Christians have given so many more "normal" Christians a bad name. In the US today academics practically scoff at you if you admit to being religious, and a lot of this is probably due to a few crazy fanatics. There are certainly extremists in every direction and they all scare the living daylight out of me.

What happened with those cartoons is disgraceful. Their initial publication was nothing other than a childish act guaranteed to raise circulation, an act by people who know full well that to create an image of the Prophet is one of the worst crimes. No respect has been shown to the Islamic community. It doesn\'t matter whether we think such a ban on images is a stupid idea (as I do!): the press has a responsibility to be impartial (fat bloody chance!). If there was a cartoon showing Jesus in a stormtrooper\'s uniform, bayoneting  a Jew, there would be similar disgust (if not more) and the politicians too would join in condemning it. And publishing them again in other papers, knowing the furore it would cause, shows just how low the tabloid press are.

Hmm I disagree here big time. It is NOT the job of a political cartoonist to be impartial. Not at ALL. If that cartoon was somehow represented as NEWS, sure, no slant please. But a political cartoonist has no more responsiblity to be impartial than someone writing an editorial does; it is opinion, and not expressed as anything more than such. A cartoonist can draw whatever they damn please, offensive or not, as long as it is not being labeled as news. It is up to the readers to make of it what they may. I have seen many a cartoon with Jesus depicted and have not heard of any buildings burning because of it. I\'m not saying the cartoons weren\'t insensitive; of course they were. But a cartoon is a cartoon, they are INHERENTLY insensitive. I don\'t hear anyone freaking out about he insensitivity of the 23576538745609570234567280 cartoons insulting GW. I do not think singling it out as a "childing act to increase circulation" is quite fair- isn\'t that what every single political cartoon ever has been? I sure as hell don\'t want to see political cartoonists suddenly become PC after this whole thing. They would be out of jobs for one, and secondly, the cartoons would be pointless. Should we start censoring these guys? Should they have to be politicaly correct all of the time? Should we stop printing that cartoon because we have been intimidated to do so by violence, thus fueling the fire over there to use violence in the name of religion as a means to an end?

However, I don\'t agree with the way some people have protested. Such actions have done more to damage their cause, than to help it. People have forgotten the reason why they are protesting - it is just the violence which sticks in their minds, further damning the majority of Muslims, who just feel hurt and debased by the actions of these newspapers.

Agreed. Although I know I myself can\'t speak for "the majority of Muslims." If they are all hurt and debased by a fucking cartoon, no matter HOW offensive, well shit they need to get some thicker skin because the world ain\'t peaches and cream and there is always going to be someone insulting your beliefs. Ask any Christian who admits to being one in any Ivy League college.

[Me!]

^^that\'s alot of words!

[boombox]

Got to disagree about the cartoons issue - it was NOT a political cartoon, but one which insulted a religious figure. I agree that political cartoons should not be censored: if the cartoonist had drawn a modern Islamic leader with his turban as a bomb, fair enough. The fact is, he chose to insult someone who is enshrined in Koranic, ie religious law. This is tantamount to saying David was a Phillistine-murdering thug or Peter was a sword waving maniac who attacked someone doing his duty, or God was a mass child-murderer who killed the first born of Egypt. When people have a religious significance, the normal rules do not apply - it is too emotive. Perhaps they need to develop a thicker skin, but then why should they? Just because social morals have lapsed and the concepts of honour and respect have been diminished, is that right?

As an atheist of thirty years, I personally couldn\'t give two hoots about God, Allah, Buddha, Mithras or even Zeus. However, I do respect the right of others to believe in any religion they like, providing they don\'t try to force it on me *, a right which should be respected and tolerated, whatever others might think. Similarly, their religion should not be attacked in this way. I do know a lot of Muslims and they are horrified and worried by what is happening, recognising the greater alienation recent events are causing.

* they\'d fail incidentally. :wink:

I must admit, it\'s good to have such an educated debate here - makes a change from the freddie-leith battles.

I\'ll leave the last word to Lemmy, however. It says it all:

I am the one, Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequies and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic sacred whore
I twist the truth, I rule the world,
my crown is called deceit
I am the emperor of lies, you grovel at my feet
I rob you and I slaughter you, your downfall is my gain
And all my promises are lies, all my love is hate
I am the politician, and i decide your fate
I march before a martyred world, an army for the fight
I speak of great heroic days, of victory and might
I hold a banner drenched in blood, I urge you to be brave
I hold you to your destiny, I lead you to your grave
Your bones will build my palaces,
your eyes will stud my crown
For I am Mars, the god of war, and I will cut you down

[kindm's]

First of all these cartoons were published in Sept. 2005. So this is all totally orchestrated.

The paperr published several cartoons depicting their prophet. The majority were tame political satire. According to their beef any depiction of mohammed is a problem so it doesn\'t matter what they published. Now when the imans from denmark recently traveled to the middle east they brought theses cartoons published in the paper as well as others that were more insulting that were not published.

The folks in the middle east act like a bunch of spoiled children. The controlling powers over there seem hell bent on depicting themsleves as savage brainless idiots. Sure there have been acts on both sides that are reprehensible but nothing about these cartoons should cost people their lives. it is really sad.

The crusades were a long time ago, sure but they discuss them in the middle east like it was yesterday. Stories of campaigns are still told to this day. So it was a long time ago for us but they hear the stories all the time. But they had just as many atrocities as the christians so dont fool yourself. And depending on whos history you believe you could make a claim that they stole it from someone else (the holy land).

They should never have given the land to the Jews. They should have made the land a UN controlled territory and made it a place for the world. That would have gone a long way to easing everyones issues IMHO. But there is no going back now.

[antbach]

I actually skipped a good portion of this thread. I don\'t like arguing religion and/or politics. But someone in there said something about extremists being the voice of Islam. I agree, but feel this is the media\'s fault for portraying it in such a way. I also feel that our country is very racist in the manner of religion. This country was built on freedom of religion (I think, I hate history, its history, its done, its over), and our citizens are hypocrites for feeling that Muslims are evil because they interpret the extremists as what the religion is. Islam, whether Americans want to believe it or not, is one of the most popular religions in the world. There are gazillions of Muslims who do not fit the profile, but people overlook that because alls they ever hear and read about is extremists and their terror.

Yea, I could probably go on, but seeing as much of that probably doesn\'t make any logical sense (maybe I should read it over, nah, too much effort), I won\'t.

For the record, I haven\'t been to church since I was 3 except for weddings and funerals, so I have no religious knowledge or affiliation (besides baptism) at this point in my life.