Was anyone else discusted by Bush\'s State of the Union Address Last Night?

[Drew_Kingsley]

That whole "Bush Lies" website is an advertisement for a book.

[leith]

Originally posted by Marcial
Ah, I see, a political choice on our part, gives them the right to intentionally kill our civilians.  Is that what they teach you out on the west coast?  LOL!  Come on dude, get serious.  At least our government does not purposely kill innocent people.... they may kill them unintentionally if they get in the way, but we do not target civilians.  

Oh ok so innocent people going about their lives is getting in the way. These people should not have to die \'cause their gov. picked on the wrong country. Just because we are Americans does not mean we are innocents and always right. The WTC had people from all sorts of countries, the attacks were not just against us and yet alot of those countries did not want to obliterate Afghanistan. Well there is a reason this is called The ONE and ONLY PBFans Political Pissing Contest Thread

[Marcial]

Leith you bleeding heart you.... maybe one of these days we can have these discussions in person at a breakfast show.... right after I buy you a SIERRA!  LOL!

[leith]

LOL  Sierra  thats great. yeah i been called worse.
So someday we will be able to share a cold one when I decide to just throw it all away and travel w/ the guys in hopes I bug \'em enough to force them to let me be their lighting guy.

[jocelyn]

Originally posted by leith
Oh ok so innocent people going about their lives is getting in the way. These people should not have to die \'cause their gov. picked on the wrong country. Just because we are Americans does not mean we are innocents and always right. The WTC had people from all sorts of countries, the attacks were not just against us and yet alot of those countries did not want to obliterate Afghanistan. Well there is a reason this is called The ONE and ONLY PBFans Political Pissing Contest Thread

Keep in mind that most of the "not so innocent Americans" who dies in the WTC had no hand in the policies of the US govt. in the Middle East. Most of the people in the WTC were just going about their business not harming a soul, and certainly not trying to screw the middle east out of oil, or blindly support Israel, or any such shenanigans. It is not fair to these people to rationalize their deaths with our government\'s poor choices. What if it had been a stadium packed full of deadheads instead? Would you still think that these people had asked for it, because their government had done something shady in the past?

[leith]

Originally posted by jocelyn
Keep in mind that most of the "not so innocent Americans" who dies in the WTC had no hand in the policies of the US govt. in the Middle East. Most of the people in the WTC were just going about their business not harming a soul, and certainly not trying to screw the middle east out of oil, or blindly support Israel, or any such shenanigans. It is not fair to these people to rationalize their deaths with our government\'s poor choices. What if it had been a stadium packed full of deadheads instead? Would you still think that these people had asked for it, because their government had done something shady in the past?

The point is Jocelyn that there are innocents in every war. The fact that our Gov. is arrogant enough to think that it\'s policies will not come back to hurt the Country is deadly. Your analogy of a stadium of Deadheads is ludicrous and I expected better from u. The WTC was a legitimate target for Al-Queda to attack. It is a symbol of capitalism and anyone who worked there in the eyes of Al-Queda was a target. Not that I agree but I can see the logic. If we were not across an ocean believe me, America would have gone through this a looooooong time ago. As far as rationalizing deaths, I can never rationalize another human\'s death by the hand of another human I can only attempt to comprehend the evil involved.

[jocelyn]

I know it was a ridiculous comparison, which was my point. I was just trying to make sure you didn\'t think the lives lost in the WTC were of any less value than those lost in Iraq and Afghanistan, simply because they\'re Americans under a grotesquely arrogant government. I understand the logic of targeting the twin towers, obviously, I am just trying to point out that although it is a symbol of capitalism, the people inside this symbol had no direct responsibility for the sufferings of the Middle Eastern people.

[leith]

Originally posted by jocelyn
I know it was a ridiculous comparison, which was my point. I was just trying to make sure you didn\'t think the lives lost in the WTC were of any less value than those lost in Iraq and Afghanistan, simply because they\'re Americans under a grotesquely arrogant government. I understand the logic of targeting the twin towers, obviously, I am just trying to point out that although it is a symbol of capitalism, the people inside this symbol had no direct responsibility for the sufferings of the Middle Eastern people.

NO HUMAN LIFE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED LESS VALUABLE THAN ANOTHER\'S UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.  I am anti-death penalty and also very pro- choice. Life is the one thing that God (whichever one you may or may not believe in ) GAVE ALL OF US. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE THAT AWAY NO MATTER WHAT!
I am a patriot to the core but will never trust my government even if run by a bunch of Deadheads!!!!!!!!

Got it Jocelyn?

[jocelyn]

Yes, and there is NO need to respond so brusquely! I don\'t think I have ever spoken to someone on here in such a manner. (If I have I apologize)  I am not a complete idiot, and I am capable of at least the basest comprehension of the English language. I had already ascertained where you stood on this by your last few posts. My last post was simply an explanation of the prior post which I believe you misinterpreted. It was not a question; you had already made yourself clear. Hence my phrasing it as "I was trying to make sure" as opposed to "I am trying to make sure."

And thus marks my last post ever in this thread!

[antbach]

1. I don\'t vote, and probably won\'t ever
2. I hate Bush, not gonna give reasons cos I dont feel like checking this thread every day to read the same stuff
3.  We made our point in Iraq, captured Saddam, why not bring them home?
4. This war on Iraq will be in my kids\' history books as a comparison to Vietnam
5. I do believe it is our own fault the WTC center got attacked, we can\'t seem to mind our own business, but I guess that\'s what we\'re supposed to do being the world power and all
6. why not be like Canada? ya don\'t see them getting into other people\'s shit (funny story, while at IT the kids next to us were from canada, drunken Ant asked if they even had a military, they came up with a good kick-in- the-face answer to make me feel silly, "yea, and to top we just got ourselves cable television")
7. Have fun with the thread guys, Im all done

[leith]

OK To all who have posted on this thread. I am very passionate abt  many issues and sometimes seem like I am coming on a bit rough. Sorry it is just my way. Anyone who knows me will tell you I am very animated when discussing many of these same subjects. Face to Face I can convey this passion with body language and the tone of voice. The internet does not allow for this w/o xtra equipment. So sorry if I seemed like i was being rude to anyone. Just so we all know I\'m the bleeding heart,  Marcial is the Hawk, Jocelyn is the World Court  oh and Gray is the fiscal conservative w/ a heart.

Oh and Antbach if you don\'t vote you don\'t have a voice. come on the U.S. deserves to hear you.

[jocelyn]

Alright Leith no harm done. I guess we just had a slight role reversal there for a minute and I felt like I was the one being attacked. If there was a handshake smiley I would use it.

However, after all this my policy from now on with this thread will remain as such: :out:

[Todd]

Originally posted by antbach
(funny story, while at IT the kids next to us were from canada, drunken Ant asked if they even had a military, they came up with a good kick-in- the-face answer to make me feel silly, "yea, and to top we just got ourselves cable television")

LMFAO!!! That is perfect!

[leith]

Man this is just ridiculous. The increase in Marine deaths in Iraq lately is needless. Let\'s just bring our men/women back home and let those Fucks sort it out for themselves. Damn we took out the dictator let them figure out the rest. If I remember my U.S. history correctly our pioneers did not have law and order per se and they managed quite well. hell the Wild West is a huge chapter in the settling of the country. I see this as no different in principle they even have the advantage of knowing what needs to be done. Damn the news here in S.D. really keeps the war fresh in our minds as many Marines over there are based here. This Sux.  Bush needs to do right by our troops NOW!!!!!!!!!

[Marcial]

at this point, that is a no can do.... politicly speaking, of course.  So many countries already see us as the big bully for going over there... if we pull out now, and leave the place a fucking wreck, we would look even worse.  Also, I think we have a sincere interest in really giving the people of Iraq what we promised them... a better government, and a better life in general.  If we leave while whacked-out militants are all over the place, what do you think is going to happen?  The whole place is going to go to shit... again...

Loosing troops sucks.  I feel sad for the people and families who get caught in the middle of a war.  But when you\'re the president, you don\'t think in terms of the individual lives lost, but rather in the overall picture of what is best for the country (and the world) as a whole.  600 seems like alot, but have you ever seen the stats for other wars?