The Breakfast.info
Breakfast Babble => The Grand Scheme Of Things => Topic started by: zuke583 on October 12, 2006, 10:54:56 am
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does anybody else agree that we can do without both "space city affair" and the "jam" on setlists? it just takes up too much room on cds, and i\'m too lazy to merge the files myself. look no further than the 9/27/06 show on the archive to see the uselessness of "space city"....it\'s called 9 seconds of noodling...why label it? i guess the "jam" is a little more of a personal preference. for what it\'s worth i love popping in a disco biscuits cd and not necessarily knowing exactly where a jam is coming up. and, as has been stated before, it can get kind of confusing for those people who have breakfast shows stored on their computers...i know it\'s possible to change the name of a file...but why should we be the ones to do all the work? isn\'t that what tapers are for?
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:moo:
let the games begin
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(http://adwoff.com/ubb/graemlins/eat_popcorn.gif)
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does anybody else agree that we can do without both "space city affair" and the "jam" on setlists?
walsh brought this up not too long ago (the \'jam\' part; not SCA). i don\'t agree..
it just takes up too much room on cds, and i\'m too lazy to merge the files myself.
i have no idea what this means.. can you explain?? how does a 2 minute jam take up any more room on a cd than that same 2 minutes added to \'song x\'?? and why would you have to merge any files?? i\'m confused..
look no further than the 9/27/06 show on the archive to see the uselessness of "space city"....it\'s called 9 seconds of noodling...why label it?
this is an exception where the recording started late and the SCA was cut short because of it. SCA is an improvised ambient jam that the band has been working into their shows a lot more lately. it\'s usually SCA > Song X. i stand by my belief that Song X begins with the first composed note of Song X, and not with a preceeding jam or SCA.
and, as has been stated before, it can get kind of confusing for those people who have breakfast shows stored on their computers...i know it\'s possible to change the name of a file...but why should we be the ones to do all the work? isn\'t that what tapers are for?
i don\'t understand this either. if you have ALL of your songs in one folder, you shouldn\'t. you should have a folder for each show.. but secondly, filenames (by etree standards) have nothing to do with what song is in them. filenames are bandnamed#t# for the purpose of easy organization. files like mp3s and flacs contain metadata where you can put things like song name, etc. i personally tag every flac i upload to etree, so not only are the files named in order, but the band name and song title will also come up in your media player of choice.. so again, i don\'t understand this.. i have over 750GB of breakfast shows on my computer, and have never had any confusion..
i personally think it is important to distinguish what is a song and what\'s not a song..
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ok, straight up n00b question here, but is there any real differential between sca and a jam? i mean, when listening to it, what\'s the difference? i\'ve been trying to hear a difference, but alas, can not. is it level of ambience? is it a particular key or chording? because if its just another type of jam, shouldn\'t they all have different names?
or am i just confusing myself too much?
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1. it just takes up too much room on cds, and i\'m too lazy to merge the files myself.
i have no idea what this means.. can you explain?? how does a 2 minute jam take up any more room on a cd than that same 2 minutes added to \'song x\'?? and why would you have to merge any files?? i\'m confused..
2. look no further than the 9/27/06 show on the archive to see the uselessness of "space city"....it\'s called 9 seconds of noodling...why label it?
this is an exception where the recording started late and the SCA was cut short because of it. SCA is an improvised ambient jam that the band has been working into their shows a lot more lately. it\'s usually SCA > Song X. i stand by my belief that Song X begins with the first composed note of Song X, and not with a preceeding jam or SCA.
3. and, as has been stated before, it can get kind of confusing for those people who have breakfast shows stored on their computers...i know it\'s possible to change the name of a file...but why should we be the ones to do all the work? isn\'t that what tapers are for?
i don\'t understand this either. if you have ALL of your songs in one folder, you shouldn\'t. you should have a folder for each show.. but secondly, filenames (by etree standards) have nothing to do with what song is in them. filenames are bandnamed#t# for the purpose of easy organization. files like mp3s and flacs contain metadata where you can put things like song name, etc. i personally tag every flac i upload to etree, so not only are the files named in order, but the band name and song title will also come up in your media player of choice.. so again, i don\'t understand this.. i have over 750GB of breakfast shows on my computer, and have never had any confusion..
i personally think it is important to distinguish what is a song and what\'s not a song..
1. it\'s not a matter of taking up time on a disc, it\'s a matter of having to write 14 songs on to one disc when simply writing nine would be sufficient. it reduces the clarity...for me anyway. as a taper, doesn\'t it take more work to create more tracks too? seems like a waste of time
2. ok so it\'s usually 39 seconds of noodling...i don\'t need to be told everytime the band strays a little from the song...i can figure that out for myself
3. i don\'t have breakfast shows on my computer...actually i don\'t even own a computer, so i\'m not even going to get into this...just restating past difficulties
i don\'t think the breakfast (or more specifically, their fans/tapers) needs to differentiate themselves from other bands by having a quirky setlist...their music can do that
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ok, straight up n00b question here, but is there any real differential between sca and a jam? i mean, when listening to it, what\'s the difference? i\'ve been trying to hear a difference, but alas, can not. is it level of ambience? is it a particular key or chording? because if its just another type of jam, shouldn\'t they all have different names?
(an) SCA is easily identified by its ambience - usually spacey (not jeff), with no real defined \'beat\' to speak of. ambient jam; no beat.
it should also be noted that the band (not a fan) came up with this identification, and has been using it for seven years now.
1. it\'s not a matter of taking up time on a disc, it\'s a matter of having to write 14 songs on to one disc when simply writing nine would be sufficient. it reduces the clarity...for me anyway. as a taper, doesn\'t it take more work to create more tracks too? seems like a waste of time
but still, you\'re not talking about any extra time or resources involved at any point in the process. your cd burner is doing all the work - you just have to drag and drop the files. and tracking a disc out (assuming you are familiar with the band) is probably the easiest/quickest part of a taper\'s job.
2. ok so it\'s usually 39 seconds of noodling...i don\'t need to be told everytime the band strays a little from the song...i can figure that out for myself
sure you can figure it out for yourself - if you hear/see it. the point of keeping accurate setlists is to have a solid idea of what the band played *on paper*.
if i look at a setlist and see:
I: No Regret
i have to assume that the opening guitar lick of NR opened that show. however, if i see:
I: Space City Affair > No Regret
that tells me that *something* came before NR. it could have been 40 seconds, or it could have been 5 minutes. the point is, *something* was played before NR. switch out SCA with \'jam\' - same deal. you\'re giving the reader a more accurate representation of how the show went.
i don\'t think the breakfast (or more specifically, their fans/tapers) needs to differentiate themselves from other bands by having a quirky setlist...their music can do that
i\'ve seen "jam" in probably 85% of setlists of bands in this genre.. i don\'t think anyone is doing anything revolutionary here.. :shrug:
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cool, thanks dave. :)
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The main point I had was that this is a recent change. Browse old setlists, the only time a "Jam" is noted is if it starts a set(which I am fine with) -OR- if there is a significant reason to note said "jam"; i.e. "Jordan and Tim Jam", "Split Open and Melt Jam" from Sully\'s...those are the ones that people should/need to know about. The Breakfast are a "Jamband", it seems silly to note after a segue marker, that there is a "jam" and then another segue marker into "song x". That is understood by all who give a shit about setlists after a show is over.
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The main point I had was that this is a recent change. Browse old setlists, the only time a "Jam" is noted is if it starts a set(which I am fine with) -OR- if there is a significant reason to note said "jam"; i.e. "Jordan and Tim Jam", "Split Open and Melt Jam" from Sully\'s...those are the ones that people should/need to know about.
it\'s actually something that started when people other than the people playing the music started recording and posting setlists. may old setlists were posted by the band - from what they had on paper and from memory. obviously they\'re not going to remember every \'jam\' that they play.
The Breakfast are a "Jamband", it seems silly to note after a segue marker, that there is a "jam" and then another segue marker into "song x". That is understood by all who give a shit about setlists after a show is over.
see my response in the previous thread. to say that a segue marker implies a \'jam\' is so wrong and retarded it\'s not even funny.
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[MOUSE]
(http://adwoff.com/ubb/graemlins/eat_popcorn.gif)
[/MOUSE]
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SCA just sounds like moving sounds, doesn\'t seem as if the band is following a set of changes...we all know this about SCA so why wouldn\'t it belong on the set list seeing how its the only song that follows these characteristics...
But other than SCA an opinion on the matter should have no influence on weather jam is on the set list or not...
It\'s the chord changes/progressions that’s all that matters...
10/02/2006 Shag, Omaha, NE
jam>Sundance...the changes from \'jam\' on the set list contain changes from the song Sundance; they just took changes from the middle of the song and jammed around them. The changes within the jam on the set list are already in the song, so if that holds true then NO jam does not belong there...
Now if the band starts playing in a certain key with changes and obviously no one recognizes then this is a jam and does belong on the set list...because as said before, we all know these jams take on a whole world of their own...
I don\'t know, I just don\'t think there should be any variables regarding this when the music speaks for it\'s self...
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:deadhorse long live space city affair!!!
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leave it the way it is and has been as long as I can remember!
Seriously how hard is it to understand what "jam" and "Space City Affair" and " > " mean...
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because listing dig > jam > merge is generic and redundant. I have never seen a bands setlist list jam as much as the breakfast. why not write it dig -> merge. In all of my years taking setlists dating back to 1996-97 Phish I never labeled a jam in between two songs.
Here is an example.
Mike\'s Song > I Am Hydrogen > Weekapaug Groove, A Song I Heard The Ocean Sing -> Piper
-> Makisupa Policeman
If this was the Breakfast it would be
Mike\'s Song > I Am Hydrogen > Weekapaug Groove, A Song I Heard The Ocean Sing > jam> Piper > jam > Makispua Policeman
although I do agree with much of what Dave has stated.
I do believe if a set starts off with a jam, it should be listed and if a jam starts after the previous song has clearly stopped before they started the jam (i.e. finish Fresh Cut, no music, then they start a jam) it could be listed.
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so we can assume that in the following set contained zero jamming?
I: Garcian Fishbowl > Inner Glimpse > Garcian Fishbowl, Wake Up In A Coma > No Regret > Merge > Space Oddity > Tricky Ways, Psygn
the composed section of WUIAC led directly into the composed section of no regret, which led directly into the composed section of merge, which led...
do you see where i\'m going with this?
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so we can assume that in the following set contained zero jamming?
I: Garcian Fishbowl > Inner Glimpse > Garcian Fishbowl, Wake Up In A Coma > No Regret > Merge > Space Oddity > Tricky Ways, Psygn
the composed section of WUIAC led directly into the composed section of no regret, which led directly into the composed section of merge, which led...
do you see where i\'m going with this?
yes but, how do I put this lightly :chin:
you\'re wrong. ;)
When something on a setlist is marked as "jam" it is a jam outside of the song. The songs have sections written in as jam sections, that would not be marked on a setlist. BUT, if the song is over, the written part of the song has been finished, and they drag it out into a "jam" but it\'s not technically another song yet, that is a jam. You wouldn\'t be writting Buquebus>jam>Buquebus, yes that would be redundant. but jam>Queeb, is another thing.
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yes but, how so I put this lightly :chin:
you\'re wrong. ;)
:slap: :lol:
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I have always used ">" to dictate when one song ended and the other song began and always used "->" to dictate when a song ended but was jammed into another song.
so we can assume that in the following set contained zero jamming?
I: Garcian Fishbowl > Inner Glimpse > Garcian Fishbowl, Wake Up In A Coma > No Regret > Merge > Space Oddity > Tricky Ways, Psygn
the composed section of WUIAC led directly into the composed section of no regret, which led directly into the composed section of merge, which led...
do you see where i\'m going with this?
One could look at this setlist and say that there was no jamming but that doesn\'t mean non of the songs were jammed out. When I read this setlist I could say that all of them were segued together and not jammed into one another but knowing the band, I know different.
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Pluto lost its planet status.
Space City Affair might lose its song status.
What is the world coming to?
I agree with Spacey, if the jam starts a set or starts after the clear ending of the previous song then it should be noted.
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because listing dig > jam > merge is generic and redundant. I have never seen a bands setlist list jam as much as the breakfast. why not write it dig -> merge.
i dunno.. i don\'t think it\'s generic OR redundant.. i mean, one of the arguments for the "non-jam" side was that it\'s supposedly confusing.. if you ask me, it\'s more confusing for someone to know a) what the difference is between -> and >, and b) that there even IS a difference between -> and >.
"DUDE, the jam between Dig and Merge was FUCKIN EPIC!!!!"
^^ i like having the option to skip right to it on the disc.. the song Dig ends with a hold out of the word "more....", and we all know how Merge starts. while there was never any silence between the last note of Dig and the beginning of the jam, the jam is a section of neither one of the songs, so it gets it\'s own label.
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I can definitely understand what you are saying. I guess it comes down to preference. While I don\'t think it makes any real difference in the way setlists are officially kept or posted. There most certainly is a difference between -> and >. Since I based most of the musical setlists I have taken off of Phish setlists, I have always known the difference between -> and >.
Its no big deal, just a way to kill time.
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Well, Breakfast does do a whole lot more jamming outside of actual songs than Phish ever did.
maybe that\'s why there\'s more "jam"s
Phish "jams" that were actual jams not contained in songs were so rare that typically they\'d do quite a long jam and then often that jam would get named on the setlist something like "Great Woods jam" or something (too lazy to look up actual examples)
Personally I think its pretty sweet looking at Breakfast setlists and seeing frequent "jams" between songs... I think it accurately represents the fact that nobody jams outta nowhere more than these guys.
Lets just say if I was looking at setlists of bands I had no clue about I would def be checking out some Breakfast just by virtue of all the jams
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so, I\'m confused - what the hell does keeping a setlist have to do with jelly?
and
(http://adwoff.com/ubb/graemlins/eat_popcorn.gif)
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ya I still think these jams definatly deserve some sort of labeling on the setlist, weather denoted by \'->\' (as spacey said) or the word \'jam\'...
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who cares?
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who cares?
What\'s the update on the price of tea in China???
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who cares?
Ummm...everyone who tapes, trades, or owns shows? This is serious stuff. Taping and trading and undersatnding your boots takes a lot of work and is of critical importance to jam music. I give major credit to everyone discussing this, regardless of which sides they\'re on.
For those who want to see the greatest setlist notation in Breakfast history, or actually in the history of music, click here http://www.thebreakfast.info/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=67
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who cares?
Ummm...everyone who tapes, trades, or owns shows? This is serious stuff. Taping and trading and undersatnding your boots takes a lot of work and is of critical importance to jam music. I give major credit to everyone discussing this, regardless of which sides they\'re on.
For those who want to see the greatest setlist notation in Breakfast history, or actually in the history of music, click here http://www.thebreakfast.info/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=67
^^^wow never knew they played the Long Hollow Bison Farm, seems like a weird place for a show... but damn do i wish i was there.
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Hmm..... , what a question to ponder. I myself as being a taper and a huge pusher of burning discs for people (with setlists).I do give a shit about trying to spread this bands music so it is a big deal. Lets face it how do bands like this get a following????? Through the music and word of mouth.
This is how I have always felt about it..........
1. how do we know the song, what I mean by this, Is the song on an album, does the jam exist as the actual part of the song? If so it does not need to be labeled
2. now if the song as we know it is changed a part that comes accross is different, the end, the beg, a section, a tempo change, a jam notation is needed. Do not read into this too much one could argue this with many more jam notations.( not sure if I came accross correctly on this)
There have been times I have questioned the notation of a jam. I suppose I feel this way because they are a jam band and anyone listening to them if you know them or not should expect to hear long songs.
Some examples of notions
3-10-05 on the setlist E. jam>no glove no love
this should not be noted, no jam at all.
4-21-05 on the setlist mooboo\'s voodoo>jam>what the funk
now here is where I would almost dare to say a personal opinion.
I would expect mooboo\'s to have jam section, I know it does not always go this way(reason for notion) but I feel it does not need to have jam in the middle because of the segue into what the funk, I know from jam bands that with that (>) is somekind of transition that most likely has a jam in it. listen to this section if anyone can. I never feel mooboos has ended until when what the funk starts. The feel for the song is still there. This is what they do.
Lastly which I could ramble forever this is just to make up for my extremely long refrain from posting.
I agree with jeff and how he explained the before and after sections of labeling jam using phish examples.
I also feel that in the overall scope of things the selists are very acurate. I just spent quite some time compareing setlists to cd\'s I have and found all were correct after trying to find a flaw.
this just means only one thing............................
keep it the way it is.
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http://www.thebreakfast.info/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&id=67
rotfl
nice, very nice
... man I can\'t believe they played at that Bison farm... I live like 15 minutes away from there and drive by it all the time. If only I knew PB existed in 2001 !!
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fair enough, wolfy. i was tired and grumpy when i wrote that and all i saw was silly bickering. but i do still think this bickering is very silly.
a few points if i may:
1. SCA is song. The structure (or lack thereof) may be ever evolving and changing, but the band recognizes this as a song and writes it on setlists, therefore it belongs on our setlists.
2. certain songs include jams. for example, after the first verse of buquebus, there is always a jam in d minor or d phrygian or any altered offshoot of those. then, at the end of the song, there is a G dorian jam that often segues into other tunes, or ends in that buquebus "theme". so on a setlist, this would look like "buquebus", not "buquebus>jam>buquebus>jam".
however, there are other times when the band will just start kicking a grove around and end up having it segue into another song. sure, they might tease the song they\'re about to play during this jam, but it doesn\'t mean that the jam has become part of the song. if the jam is not intrinsic to the song\'s structure, then it deserves it\'s own notation on the setlist, just like the jam > no regret example dave gave earlier.
i\'ve seen tapers who are unfamiliar with the band mix up the spots where "jam>" is appropriate in the setlist, so i can see someone thinking that there is little rhyme or reason to this, but look at all of dave\'s recordings and you will see the proper format.
what the hell am i doing up at 9am on a sunday? i havent been to church in many years and i sure as shit ain\'t going running or anything.
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look at all of dave\'s recordings and you will see the proper format.
:that:
there is a rhyme and a reason and dave keeps it real
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Lastly which I could ramble forever this is just to make up for my extremely long refrain from posting.
:wave2: And a hell of a come back post at that!!!