Post by: Yoda on January 21, 2004, 02:53:00 pm
As the bumper sticker on the back of my car says, "You don\'t have to like Bush to love America!"
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 21, 2004, 03:20:49 pm
Post by: Yoda on January 21, 2004, 03:36:09 pm
1.) His comment (and I\'m paraphrasing) that he may attempt to add an ammendment to the Bill of Rights to ban same sex marriage.
2.) His repetitious mentioning of religion. That\'s fine that he\'s a religious person in his private life, but isn\'t there separation of church and state? I\'m a practicing Catholic, but I don\'t want to hear it from the President.
3.) His stand on offering legal work to Illegal Immigrants. I know that this is a very Pat Buchanan frame of mind, but I think that a little military presence on the borders might do us some good.
4.) His push to get more tax refunds (He keeps spending and keeps cutting taxes. It doesn\'t take a genius to realize that what he is doing is increasing the deficit, which was a surplus before he took office, and is now what, some $4 trillion)
5.) And he has no intention of bringing th troops back home. Routing out terrorism around the world is not our job. Routing terrorism in the USA is.
6.) $1 billion towards the space program? Aren\'t there people starving and dying in the streets that would better benefit from that $1 billion?
The sad thing is, the facists haven\'t put out someone worth voting for. I, myself, will choose not to vote rather than vote for one of the unworthly facists and I sure as hell wouldn\'t vote for Bush.
Post by: leith on January 21, 2004, 04:12:51 pm
Post by: freddiewaht on January 21, 2004, 04:15:23 pm
Post by: leith on January 21, 2004, 04:17:45 pm
Post by: freddiewaht on January 21, 2004, 04:22:07 pm
Post by: freddiewaht on January 21, 2004, 04:22:58 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 21, 2004, 04:40:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Yoda
I respect your choice in voting. There are just a couple things that scare me.
1.) His comment (and I\'m paraphrasing) that he may attempt to add an ammendment to the Bill of Rights to ban same sex marriage.
4.) His push to get more tax refunds (He keeps spending and keeps cutting taxes. It doesn\'t take a genius to realize that what he is doing is increasing the deficit, which was a surplus before he took office, and is now what, some $4 trillion)
5.) And he has no intention of bringing th troops back home. Routing out terrorism around the world is not our job. Routing terrorism in the USA is.
6.) $1 billion towards the space program? Aren\'t there people starving and dying in the streets that would better benefit from that $1 billion?
The sad thing is, the facists haven\'t put out someone worth voting for. I, myself, will choose not to vote rather than vote for one of the unworthly facists and I sure as hell wouldn\'t vote for Bush.
1.) I agree with him 100% about same sex marriage. I think that it\'s disgusting and that it\'s a sin. I would not not honor a same sex marriage as they are illegal and just plain wrong.
4.) Money in the pockets of Americans mean they are more likely to spend there money on goods. When the american people spend money on goods, it boots the ecomeny. I love it how people say that Bill Clinton did such a good job with the ecomeny, when in all actuality he didn\'t have anything to do with it. The econemy was on the downfall on his way out. he got lucky with the .com boom.
5.) Any American life lost to a terrist is one fighting for. You for one don\'t seem to get it. They train in other countries and they come and attack us.
On a side note when WTC 1 happend, Bill Clinton did not go to Ground Zero. He did not even go to NYC for that matter. George W. Bush went to Ground Zero only days after the attack.
6.) Space exploeration is a great thing in my eyes. There is so much out there to be discoverd. I am all for a revamped Space Program. Thats something this country has needed for a long time. As far as people starving in the streets, they can get a job. Most choose not to, I\'m sick and tired of paying for them. You get a job, I will be more then happy to help you. You refuse to work or you "can\'t work", I won\'t help you.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 21, 2004, 04:42:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Bush Jr. is the 2nd Worst Commander-In-Chief next to Slick Willy that our military has ever had to follow. As a veteran of the 1st Gulf War I understood why Saddam needed to be deposed but the way Bush Jr. lied to the men and women of our Armed Forces is an unforgivable act IMO. Where the Fuck are those WMD\'s that were so close to being used against us? Tell me that and U get my vote. On 2nd thought no, you will probably screw things up w/ N. Korea and Boom there we go! From stealing an election to lying to the American Public about WMD\'s this guy is a bigger crook than his father.
Are you serious?
Post by: Todd on January 21, 2004, 04:45:05 pm
Post by: Yoda on January 21, 2004, 05:01:01 pm
(This comment is just ignorant. It has been scientifically proven that it\'s not always some people are born homosexual and then some people choose it. I for one do not choose that life, but have friends that do, and why shouldn\'t they be allowed to get married if they want to. Get your nose out of the Bible and into modern day reality)
4.) Money in the pockets of Americans mean they are more likely to spend there money on goods. When the american people spend money on goods, it boots the ecomeny. I love it how people say that Bill Clinton did such a good job with the ecomeny, when in all actuality he didn\'t have anything to do with it. The econemy was on the downfall on his way out. he got lucky with the .com boom.
(I think the numbers speak for themselves. What was it, over $7 trillion in deficit erased in the Clinton years, $4 trillion in the less than 4 years Bush has been in office)
5.) Any American life lost to a terrist is one fighting for. You for one don\'t seem to get it. They train in other countries and they come and attack us.
(I understand going and fighting in Afganistan, that\'s a direct reaction to the 9/11 attack, but going after Saddam, that\'s just continuing the adgenda that his father couldn\'t complete. Turning the rest of the world into facistic nations is not our job, nor our business. We have enough problems in the states without having to get involved in other peoples business. And I get it, but it seems as if Bush feels obligated to have us in a constant state of war. Maybe because if he\'s not, the country will realize that he doesn\'t have a clue what he\'s doing.)
On a side note when WTC 1 happend, Bill Clinton did not go to Ground Zero. He did not even go to NYC for that matter. George W. Bush went to Ground Zero only days after the attack.
(I agree with you on this, but I do think that it was a cheesy stunt having Bush flying and landing a jet onto an aircraft carrier.)
6.) Space exploeration is a great thing in my eyes. There is so much out there to be discoverd. I am all for a revamped Space Program. Thats something this country has needed for a long time. As far as people starving in the streets, they can get a job. Most choose not to, I\'m sick and tired of paying for them. You get a job, I will be more then happy to help you. You refuse to work or you "can\'t work", I won\'t help you.
(Space exploration does have it purpose, but not at the expense of our pockets and when there are problems in our own country that need dealing with first. I agree with you that there is a substantial number of people living off of the system and it is they who I don\'t respect. But what about the unemployed and homeless that try to get a job, but are turned down because they do not have a permanent address or a change of clothes or even a place to shower)
Listening to your comments, it would seem as if you are one of those right wing extremists that only listen to 770 AM and that fat melon head Rush. Open your eyes and ears and realize that while the facists are in office, the rich will contiunue to get rich off of the poor and middle class, the poor will continue to be poor and the middle class will continue to carry the burden and will never have the opportunity to advance. Pass the millionaire tax throughout the country and give the rest of us a break for once.
Post by: leith on January 21, 2004, 05:36:52 pm
Any life lost fighting terrorists is worth losing? FUCK YOU ! Tell that to my friend\'s family and all the others who have lost members. Go enlist and follow Bush Jr. to your death. This terrorist thing is played out. The entire world has been suffering from terrorism for the past 50 years. Now it finally happens here and wow now America cares about Terrorism? Do not even get me started on the U.S.\'s terrorist actions all covert but proven to have happened.
Bush went to Ground Zero because he was the Pres. FORMER Pres.Clinton had no such obligation.
Space exploration instead of helping our own citizens? Are YOU serious ? How the hell does space exploration help anyone? Oh I see, you do not want the unemployment rate to shoot up if the astronauts don\'t have something to do? Whatever man.
Post by: freddiewaht on January 21, 2004, 06:02:35 pm
Post by: leith on January 21, 2004, 06:13:06 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 21, 2004, 06:22:10 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Same Sex unions should be legal for tax and other reasons. Notice i did not write marriage. Who has the right to say these people can not be together? GOD. Last time I checked GOD is not running our Government.
Its not normal, don\'t give me they are born with this shit excuse either. Therapy can do mircales for people. Tax reasons??? You have to be kidding me. I just laughed out loud. Who knows if there is a GOD? I don\'t and you don\'t, so that excuse doesn\'t work.
Quote
Any life lost fighting terrorists is worth losing? FUCK YOU ! Tell that to my friend\'s family and all the others who have lost members. Go enlist and follow Bush Jr. to your death. This terrorist thing is played out. The entire world has been suffering from terrorism for the past 50 years. Now it finally happens here and wow now America cares about Terrorism? Do not even get me started on the U.S.\'s terrorist actions all covert but proven to have happened.
Ok, FUCK ME as you would say. You have noting to base this on, I know people who went down with the towers. My friends fiance died that day in Tower 1. When you sign up for Miltary Service, you know that you might die. Its not that hard to figure out!!! Follow Bush to your death?? Your very igorant and you are saying that out of rage. Typical for a Liberal. Ok, it has happened here before 9/11. I hate to break it to you. Bush takes action and doesn\'t hide. Clinton sent Cruz Missels into Afaganastain, nothing happend. They came back to take our towers down. Also CIA evidence says that Clinton knew the wearabouts of Bin Landen and did nothing!!!!! A few Cruz missles, uh... Big deal. Do you not care that we are safer now then we have ever been? Or that kids in Iraq and Afaganastain can go to school now? You seem to have lost touch with whats going on. I can\'t wait till Bush gets reelected so you can bitch and mone.
Quote
Bush went to Ground Zero because he was the Pres. FORMER Pres.Clinton had no such obligation.
You seem to miss the point with this. When they bomded the WTC 9 years ago. Clinton was in office, he did not go to ground zero!!! At that time, it was the worst Terriost Attack is this counrty. Care to explain that one? Clinton was all about himself, he ruined the White House. Remeber all those scandles? Or how he stole furniture from the White House. DO NOT forget he was FORCED to return it.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 21, 2004, 06:39:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Yoda
1.) I agree with him 100% about same sex marriage. I think that it\'s disgusting and that it\'s a sin. I would not not honor a same sex marriage as they are illegal and just plain wrong.
(This comment is just ignorant. It has been scientifically proven that it\'s not always some people are born homosexual and then some people choose it. I for one do not choose that life, but have friends that do, and why shouldn\'t they be allowed to get married if they want to. Get your nose out of the Bible and into modern day reality)
4.) Money in the pockets of Americans mean they are more likely to spend there money on goods. When the american people spend money on goods, it boots the ecomeny. I love it how people say that Bill Clinton did such a good job with the ecomeny, when in all actuality he didn\'t have anything to do with it. The econemy was on the downfall on his way out. he got lucky with the .com boom.
(I think the numbers speak for themselves. What was it, over $7 trillion in deficit erased in the Clinton years, $4 trillion in the less than 4 years Bush has been in office)
5.) Any American life lost to a terrist is one fighting for. You for one don\'t seem to get it. They train in other countries and they come and attack us.
(I understand going and fighting in Afganistan, that\'s a direct reaction to the 9/11 attack, but going after Saddam, that\'s just continuing the adgenda that his father couldn\'t complete. Turning the rest of the world into facistic nations is not our job, nor our business. We have enough problems in the states without having to get involved in other peoples business. And I get it, but it seems as if Bush feels obligated to have us in a constant state of war. Maybe because if he\'s not, the country will realize that he doesn\'t have a clue what he\'s doing.)
On a side note when WTC 1 happend, Bill Clinton did not go to Ground Zero. He did not even go to NYC for that matter. George W. Bush went to Ground Zero only days after the attack.
(I agree with you on this, but I do think that it was a cheesy stunt having Bush flying and landing a jet onto an aircraft carrier.)
6.) Space exploeration is a great thing in my eyes. There is so much out there to be discoverd. I am all for a revamped Space Program. Thats something this country has needed for a long time. As far as people starving in the streets, they can get a job. Most choose not to, I\'m sick and tired of paying for them. You get a job, I will be more then happy to help you. You refuse to work or you "can\'t work", I won\'t help you.
(Space exploration does have it purpose, but not at the expense of our pockets and when there are problems in our own country that need dealing with first. I agree with you that there is a substantial number of people living off of the system and it is they who I don\'t respect. But what about the unemployed and homeless that try to get a job, but are turned down because they do not have a permanent address or a change of clothes or even a place to shower)
Listening to your comments, it would seem as if you are one of those right wing extremists that only listen to 770 AM and that fat melon head Rush. Open your eyes and ears and realize that while the facists are in office, the rich will contiunue to get rich off of the poor and middle class, the poor will continue to be poor and the middle class will continue to carry the burden and will never have the opportunity to advance. Pass the millionaire tax throughout the country and give the rest of us a break for once.
The simple thing to say to you is that your ingorant.
1. Don\'t give me they are born with it excuse, Theorphy works mircales. You liberals are trying to make "GAY" people the norm. It ain\'t going to fly with me or alot of other people. If they want to be gay, fine. Just not in public, I don\'t need to see this shit. Its fucking grose!
4. You need to start reading the Wall Street Journal. If you look at the market, it was falling apart before Clinton left office. Bush just inherited the problems that everyone knew was coming.
5. Saddam was a threat to the Middle East and US interests. There will be no Middle East Peace with Saddam and Afrat in power. One down, one more to go. Also do you care about the people of Iraq? They are free now!!! You take your freedom for granted, they don\'t.
- Aircraft stunt was pure genious. It wasn\'t a stunt, it was a planned event. Amazing day and just good politics. Also Bush was a fighter pilot in the National Guard, so he can fly a plane.
6. I would rather pay for Space Exploration then putting all these people who refuse to work in public housing. They need to learn to get a job. Yes they can work, they just abuse the system.
- Comments
Right Wing extremist, no. facist that stands with our President George W. Bush, yes. Why do you want a millionaire tax so bad, people that are that rich did it with your head. You should read "Jack" by Jack Welch. Look were he started, and were he ended up. This country is so great, you can be what ever you want. You just have to work for it. I have been working since I have been 14!! There is no reason why anyone can\'t get a job. if you have enough desire you can do it! I\'m sick of this I deserve free hands out shit!!! The rich do not rich off of the poor, were do you get that? The rich got rich by hard work, not sitting on there ass waiting for handouts.
Post by: leith on January 21, 2004, 06:46:48 pm
Rage yeah I have plenty of Rage over this. As for signing up knowing your life is in danger,at one point in our History it would be worth dying for American values. No more. Our values have been corrupted and become capitalist values not American values.
Your friends fiance\' died in the attack I am sorry but you still do not get it. She died because of the corrupt government we have causing trouble around the globe. When I fought in the 1st war it was to liberate Kuwait first and foremost. All the other bs like oil and shit was secondary. If Bush had just said "Look we freed Kuwait now we will free Iraq itself" I would be less inclined to argue. Bush did not do that. HE LIED to YOU and everyone else. So follow that Liar at your own risk. Until you actually have put your life on the line for these freedoms and earned the right, I think you should watch what you say. As for being safer than ever LOL my god you are a fool if you think the new "alert system" actually means anything. They knew 9/11 was going to happen and they did not stop that. So what makes you think we are safer? Longer lines @ the airport? Armed Sky Marshalls( a bullet shot by anyone into a plane still depressurizes the plane.
Well take solace in the fact that if Bush has his way. Our scene WILL disappear. Believe It!!!
Oh yeah as far as gays go, Who are you to say what is normal for another Human Being? It grosses me out too but I do support there secular rights which have nothing to do w/ their religion and should\'nt have anything to do w/ yours.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 21, 2004, 06:51:36 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Hey I do not agree that Clinton was all that but Bush is a media whore and you know it. Clinton was too but he did balance the budget.
Rage yeah I have plenty of Rage over this. As for signing up knowing your life is in danger,at one point in our History it would be worth dying for American values. No more. Our values have been corrupted and become capitalist values not American values.
Your friends fiance\' died in the attack I am sorry but you still do not get it. She died because of the corrupt government we have causing trouble around the globe. When I fought in the 1st war it was to liberate Kuwait first and foremost. All the other bs like oil and shit was secondary. If Bush had just said "Look we freed Kuwait now we will free Iraq itself" I would be less inclined to argue. Bush did not do that. HE LIED to YOU and everyone else. So follow that Liar at your own risk. Until you actually have put your life on the line for these freedoms and earned the right, I think you should watch what you say. As for being safer than ever LOL my god you are a fool if you think the new "alert system" actually means anything. They knew 9/11 was going to happen and they did not stop that. So what makes you think we are safer? Longer lines @ the airport? Armed Sky Marshalls( a bullet shot by anyone into a plane still depressurizes the plane.
Well take solace in the fact that if Bush has his way. Our scene WILL disappear. Believe It!!!
Oh yeah as far as gays go, Who are you to say what is normal for another Human Being? It grosses me out too but I do support there secular rights which have nothing to do w/ their religion and should\'nt have anything to do w/ yours.
Plain and Simple, YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT! end of story
Post by: leith on January 21, 2004, 07:00:43 pm
So I am a piece of shit for caring about my fellow humans rights?
I am a piece of shit for caring that the country I love and completed Military Service for is being destroyed?
I am a piece of shit for pointing out that Bush is a lying murderer?
OK I guess I am a piece of shit for exercising my RIGHT of free speech. Bush is an asshole and you are acting like one.
Post by: kindm's on January 21, 2004, 07:02:12 pm
Your rhetoric about gays and homeless people is extremely close minded IMHO. My sister In-Law is Gay. Her and her partner have adopted two wonderful children and love them and provide for them. Who the hell are you to impose your sense of morality on anyone. You ever heard the saying "don\'t judge another until you have walked in their moccasins two weeks".
Why don\'t you just take a baseball bat with you on the streets of Manhattan and show the people how you really feel.
How do you expect people to be tolerant of you when you have no tolerance for others ?
Post by: Wolfman on January 21, 2004, 07:09:55 pm
Gray, you really should enlist in an armed service. If you think it\'s worth dying to fight terrorism, then it is your calling and you should do it. Most people go through life and never believe in anything strongly enough to say that it is worth dying for. There are a lot of people enlisted right now who do not want to be out there, and I\'d much rather have you out there than them. If you really mean that, then you should enlist. Seriously.
Post by: antbach on January 21, 2004, 07:23:23 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 22, 2004, 08:03:25 am
Quote
Originally posted by kindm\'s
I think it is funny that someone would say gays are gross and that you don\'t need to see that shit etc. Dude you are part of a community where a large percentage of people you are enjoying a concert with have very differing tastes in regards to sex etc.
Your rhetoric about gays and homeless people is extremely close minded IMHO. My sister In-Law is Gay. Her and her partner have adopted two wonderful children and love them and provide for them. Who the hell are you to impose your sense of morality on anyone. You ever heard the saying "don\'t judge another until you have walked in their moccasins two weeks".
Why don\'t you just take a baseball bat with you on the streets of Manhattan and show the people how you really feel.
How do you expect people to be tolerant of you when you have no tolerance for others ?
I have no problem with that. I just don\'t want to see it. Don\'t ask Don\'t tell is a good policy. What they do in there own home is there business, just don\'t do it in public. Or force it down my throat via liberal media.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 22, 2004, 08:05:10 am
Quote
Originally posted by Wolfman
I hate politcal talk, and I\'m sorry I ever read this thread.
Gray, you really should enlist in an armed service. If you think it\'s worth dying to fight terrorism, then it is your calling and you should do it. Most people go through life and never believe in anything strongly enough to say that it is worth dying for. There are a lot of people enlisted right now who do not want to be out there, and I\'d much rather have you out there than them. If you really mean that, then you should enlist. Seriously.
I almost enlisted after 9/11, but was talked out of it. The Miltary is not for me. On a side note, I do my part as my company makes most of the weapons that are being used over there. As well as some of the parts for airplanes. I do my part, by supporting our President and SUPPORTING our TROOPS!!!!
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 22, 2004, 08:06:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Why because i do not just guzzle the crap the Government feeds the public ? Hey if you can not face facts that this administration has set this country back. That is your problem.
So I am a piece of shit for caring about my fellow humans rights?
I am a piece of shit for caring that the country I love and completed Military Service for is being destroyed?
I am a piece of shit for pointing out that Bush is a lying murderer?
OK I guess I am a piece of shit for exercising my RIGHT of free speech. Bush is an asshole and you are acting like one.
You are out of touch with reality.
Post by: kindm's on January 22, 2004, 10:13:52 am
Don\'t ask Don\'t tell is a military policy. It is not the law of the land.
Supporting our troops has nothing to do with supporting this president. If you really support our troops you would be trying to get them home. They were sent to Iraq to die under false pretences of an immediate threat of WMD. How many who died there believed they were doing the right thing ? How many have died in vain ? How many have died because of this lie we call Iraq. You can spin it all you want. This Presient lied to the American People in order for us to back a War in Iraq.
Also you are so hung up on the President visiting WTC after 9/11. Big deal. Why don\'t you ask this president that you love so much why him and the Bush family have been in business with the Bin Laden family for years ? Why not ask him why on 9/12, and 9/13 of 2001 when no americans were allowed to fly all plans grounded, was an airliner allowed to fly to multiple citys in the USA and pick up the Bin Laden Family and fly them out of the country ? Not once ever being questiond by any US official ?
So why he was at WTC making you feel better all of this other stuff was happening. Why don\'t you ask your beloved president that. Or why you ar at it why not ask him why he USED the deaths of all of those people and your friends to justify a WAR that he and his cronies were planning as soon as he took office. They wanted a way to go to Iraq! Hell, Paul O\'neill a former member of the CABINET said the guys a moron and that they were planning this since day 1. He even offers white house memos/documents to back it up.
Senator Joseph Biden said this week that GWB is for lack of a better term a Puppet. It is really Dick Cheney who is running things. It is Dick Cheney who the president takes his ques from and it is his opinion that the President values over all others.
And one last thing. It is easy to sit on the sidelines and say that a soliders death is a good one if it is to fight terrorism. You say that Military life wasn\'t for you that you were talked out of it. I wonder what arguments made you not do it ? Was it the idea of dying for someone else\'s ideals, was it having to take orders ? or was it that mommy and daddy had enough $$$$ that you didn\'t need it to afford college.
Post by: leith on January 22, 2004, 12:33:37 pm
This statement proves what i thought. You are full of hot air AND you\'re a hoo haa. Talked out of joining. You make me laugh. You TALK a good game but you\'ll never back it up. You\'re right the Military is not for you. THEY NEED REAL MEN AND WOMEN."My co.makes weapons..." What a joke you\'re really helping our troops. NO! you\'re helping that murdering jackel Bush. Lost touch w/ Reality? that\'s you man not me. It is becoming obvious that you have been a sheltered little boy taught by good facists. Never had a day where you wondered where you would sleep or eat. Nice life. No wonder you have no grip on reality.
Post by: freddiewaht on January 22, 2004, 01:38:34 pm
Post by: Yoda on January 22, 2004, 02:07:05 pm
I just posted my point of view on the presidential speech. Politics always ends up this way, but discussion and arguments are a healthy form of communication. I honestly didn\'t think that there would be too many right wing facists on this site, but everyone is entitled to their opinion on the current state of our country. So I guess I should make a couple final comments on and that will be my final post of this thread. Maybe the thread should be closed before more people end up heated at one another.
1.) I don\'t think any American who has a heart doesn\'t care about what happened on 9/11 or our Troops that are overseas. (I have friends were in both towers and luckily they all survived. I also have several friends that are fighting in Iraq and again luckily they are all alive. All I\'m saying is let\'s bring them back home alive and soon. I\'m sure that I\'m not the only one out there that is afraid that this will turn out into another Vietnam.)
2.) I have nothing against affluent people that worked their way up the rungs of society. I think that many people are frustrated with the people that were born with a silver spoon in their mouthes and didn\'t have to work a day in their lives or suffer not having a couple bucks to buy the things they need.
3.) I do not have ill feeling towards all facists as I share a house with two of them, but what I do have a problem with is facists who were born facist, live facist and die facist because they didn\'t take the chance to look around see that the world is not paved with conservative thinking.
4.) There will always be different classes of people, rich, middle class and poor. If we all do not do our part to help each other, then we will never to be a more balanced and humane society.
And if by some small chance, Leith is banned from the site by Tyedieyoga, then I know that Dave would have the common sense to see that should be reversed.
I guess that it was a mistake to bring this topic up. I guess as long as we all keep our comments to ourselves then no one will be upset on this site.
Later,
DB
Post by: Overexjoesure on January 22, 2004, 02:29:19 pm
Point is man, to each his own, we\'re all human beings and we all bleed red...
ALSO, for your personal benefit and from a psychological standpoint, people that are homophobic usually have a tendency to be questioning their own sexuality subconsciously......:)
Post by: leith on January 22, 2004, 02:43:21 pm
I used to have the same ideals. I grew up in Orange County in the \'80\'s.THE MOST AFFLUENT CONSERVATIVE facist STRONGHOLD IN THIS COUNTRY @ the time. I was working @ the age of 14 w/ a work permit. I polled for facist candidates @ 16. I have seen what facist politics does. I have travelled outside the U.S. and have seen how the rest of the world thinks of us. Overall they do not like us. They put up w/ us because of our $$$ and power. I entered the USN to fulfill what I saw as my Duty to my country. If I was willing to reap the benefits of freedom in this country, I should be willing to serve my country. So I cut my hippie hair and joined. Then a year later we\'re @ war. So having served and seen our Government @ work, I feel I have a right to dissent and inform. If Tiedyetoga wants to live the fairytale that the U.S. in good hands and we should be the World Police fine. Let him. I will spend my time trying to inform others who are more open to questioning their surroundings.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 22, 2004, 03:43:19 pm
Quote
Originally posted by kindm\'s
They have kids and are a family should they be denied the same protections under the law ? do they deserve to get the same treatment as anyone else who decides to spend their lives together. YES
Don\'t ask Don\'t tell is a military policy. It is not the law of the land.
Supporting our troops has nothing to do with supporting this president. If you really support our troops you would be trying to get them home. They were sent to Iraq to die under false pretences of an immediate threat of WMD. How many who died there believed they were doing the right thing ? How many have died in vain ? How many have died because of this lie we call Iraq. You can spin it all you want. This Presient lied to the American People in order for us to back a War in Iraq.
Also you are so hung up on the President visiting WTC after 9/11. Big deal. Why don\'t you ask this president that you love so much why him and the Bush family have been in business with the Bin Laden family for years ? Why not ask him why on 9/12, and 9/13 of 2001 when no americans were allowed to fly all plans grounded, was an airliner allowed to fly to multiple citys in the USA and pick up the Bin Laden Family and fly them out of the country ? Not once ever being questiond by any US official ?
So why he was at WTC making you feel better all of this other stuff was happening. Why don\'t you ask your beloved president that. Or why you ar at it why not ask him why he USED the deaths of all of those people and your friends to justify a WAR that he and his cronies were planning as soon as he took office. They wanted a way to go to Iraq! Hell, Paul O\'neill a former member of the CABINET said the guys a moron and that they were planning this since day 1. He even offers white house memos/documents to back it up.
Senator Joseph Biden said this week that GWB is for lack of a better term a Puppet. It is really Dick Cheney who is running things. It is Dick Cheney who the president takes his ques from and it is his opinion that the President values over all others.
And one last thing. It is easy to sit on the sidelines and say that a soliders death is a good one if it is to fight terrorism. You say that Military life wasn\'t for you that you were talked out of it. I wonder what arguments made you not do it ? Was it the idea of dying for someone else\'s ideals, was it having to take orders ? or was it that mommy and daddy had enough $$$$ that you didn\'t need it to afford college.
Don\'t ask don\'t tell should be a law. To sum up all your views, you are out of touch with reality.
As far as Cheney running things, Bush Jr.\'s Cabnit is pretty much the same as his Dad\'s. Its a wartime cabint. That should speak for itself.
I never said that a Soliders death is a good one. You said that, DO NOT put words in my mouth. More then 60% of the people at my job are ex-Military and they said a few things. Keep in mind, 99% of them voted for Bush and stand with him.
Ok, The whole Mommy and Daddy thing is so far from the truth. I have lived on my own for over 3 years NOW! Mommy and Daddy don\'t pay a penny. I have worked very hard in my life and I can afford some nice things. I support myself. Also I never went to College.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 22, 2004, 03:46:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
This statement proves what i thought. You are full of hot air AND you\'re a hoo haa. Talked out of joining. You make me laugh. You TALK a good game but you\'ll never back it up. You\'re right the Military is not for you. THEY NEED REAL MEN AND WOMEN."My co.makes weapons..." What a joke you\'re really helping our troops. NO! you\'re helping that murdering jackel Bush. Lost touch w/ Reality? that\'s you man not me. It is becoming obvious that you have been a sheltered little boy taught by good facists. Never had a day where you wondered where you would sleep or eat. Nice life. No wonder you have no grip on reality.
Full of Hot Air, no. You have no clue what I have been through in my life. Only if you knew. I don\'t know why everyone gets the impression that I have been taking care of my whole life and have not expericenced anything. Before you state facts, you need to know me. People who work hard, can make anything happen.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 22, 2004, 03:47:25 pm
Post by: leith on January 22, 2004, 04:51:06 pm
Oh and congrats on living on your own for 3 whole years.
I would wish you peace and happiness but it seems Peace is not something you are interested in and u seem happy enough with the state of our country so why bother.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 22, 2004, 05:28:03 pm
Post by: leith on January 22, 2004, 05:38:43 pm
Post by: kindm's on January 22, 2004, 05:47:46 pm
There was no debate. People brought up valid points and you simply dismissed them as being out of touch with reality.
As for your views on Gays you are entitled to your opinion even if they do make you a Bigot. Isn\'t freedom grand :)
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 22, 2004, 05:51:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
If I knew the smiley for shaking hands. You would see it. Hope you made it through this little debate fairly unruffled. Just be prepared my friend to run into many folks that share my views in the scene. Not saying we are right or wrong but dude realize most of the scene we have now was brought about by many of our parents questioning the authority of their time. Just try and realize many "liberals" love this country just as much as u do and are unafraid to voice dissent. Peace.
In the music scence that I enjoy, most people are liberal. Thats why I tend to keep my views to myself.
Also for the "Whole" 3 years comment. I\'m only 21, and I got my apartment when I was 18. So to me it was a huge step.
Post by: leith on January 22, 2004, 06:23:24 pm
No I think u should express your views to as many people as possible. Just because your views may be in the minority in the scene you enjoy does not mean they should not be heard.
Oh and just to let you know the only thing that really got to me was your comment abt how u were talked out of enlisting. You really have no leg to stand on when it comes to talking about the military. I take offense to anyone who thinks that our men and women are cannon fodder and that is what it seemed u were saying. It takes alot to enlist even in peacetime,it shows that you feel the U.S. is worth your very life. Any life lost for any reason is horrible but some reasons are better or worse than others. I know many veterans that disagree w/ the war on the pure fact that they believe they were lied to as do I. So forgive me for getting upset but I have reason. I am proud of my servicetime and love my country, it\'s the government that scares the hell out of me.
Post by: Wolfman on January 22, 2004, 06:48:26 pm
Post by: Overexjoesure on January 22, 2004, 10:35:24 pm
Post by: freddiewaht on January 23, 2004, 12:54:17 am
Post by: antbach on January 23, 2004, 01:51:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by freddiewaht
hey gray,would you stop being my friend if i confessed that i was gay?
absolutely the best post of the thread, heh. . .
Post by: leith on January 23, 2004, 02:00:37 am
Post by: jocelyn on January 23, 2004, 02:00:12 pm
Quote
Its not normal, don\'t give me they are born with this shit excuse either. Therapy can do mircales for people. Tax reasons??? You have to be kidding me. I just laughed out loud. Who knows if there is a GOD? I don\'t and you don\'t, so that excuse doesn\'t work.
Therapy? Are you kidding me? Yeah, let\'s try and talk people out of the love they might feel for another person. I\'m sure the positive repercussions of that strategy will echo for generations to come. Gimme a break. Even if you don\'t want to see gays publicly expressing their affection (to be honest, I don\'t want to see anyone making out in public...), there are so many reasons why civil unions (or marriage, whatever, it\'s all just rhetoric really) need to be legal. For example, If a gay man/woman were to get into an accident and slip into a coma, their boy/girlfriend often wouldn\'t be allowed to see them in the hospital because they are not "kin" nor are they legally married. But, the parent of the person, the same parent who perhaps practically disowned their child for being gay, would be allowed in. Ridiculous.
More money for the space program? Not practical. The positive thing about the space program is that historically it has been shown to really unite the country and give it a common goal to be excited about (ala the Kennedy administration). But I really think their are more pressing issues that need funding. Feed some hungry mouths maybe?
Gray, I know people who have worked their ASSES off their ENTIRE lives and are still below the legal poverty level. If it weren\'t for the government "handouts" that facists so strongly detest, these people wouldn\'t be eating, and neither would their kids.
I agree with you Gray that\'s Bush\'s actions in response to 9-11 were appropriate. Something had to be done. And yeah, it\'s great that Iraq has been liberated. My problem is that he lied to the public about the REASONS for going into Iraq. WMD? Liberating the people? C\'mon. If he\'s all about liberating the people, I wanna see him take on China, Cuba, hell why not the Koreans.... there are too many to list. His motives were not so pristine as he made them out to be, and I think you must be a bit naive if you automatically believe every word that comes out of your president\'s mouth. You can\'t trust ANYONE in a position of power. Human beings are flawed, and they WILL abuse their power. It\'s a historical fact.
I think one of the reasons that so many people are so blindly following Bush is that 9-11 caused the public to bond with him in a way few presidents have been able to bond with the American people. (With the exception of maybe Kennedy, Roosevelt, and I dunno, maybe there are others...) It is almost as though the Amercian people are rooting for him, and when he screws up, you can practically hear Jay Severeign (sp?) saying "It\'s ok Bushy, try again, do better next time, we forgive you." Think how fast the public jumped on Clinton\'s mistakes. The issue, people say, was the fact that he lied to the public. So why excuse Bush\'s lying, when his lies caused the death of so many American soldiers?
Gray, you can support your troops and support your country without supporting a war. My friend Josh was home from The \'Raq for Christmas, and I was not about to bombard him with "baby killer" comments. All I wanted to do was hug him and keep him from going back over there. My way of supporting the troops is to keep a watchful eye on our leader to ascertain whether or not their lives are being lost in vain. My support is manifested in a desire to see our troops safe at home!
Quote
Plain and Simple, YOU ARE A PIECE OF SHIT! end of story
Grow up. I might expect to see this crap on a disco biscuits forum (he he he), but here? I thought we were above this.
Post by: Overexjoesure on January 23, 2004, 02:06:29 pm
Post by: jocelyn on January 23, 2004, 02:20:02 pm
Post by: Overexjoesure on January 23, 2004, 02:47:22 pm
Post by: jocelyn on January 23, 2004, 03:42:11 pm
so much for eloquence!
Post by: Overexjoesure on January 23, 2004, 03:49:20 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 24, 2004, 11:56:30 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Joe
Wolfman didn\'t you read his earlier post???!!! He\'d send him to therapy!!! Therapy cures everything, especially ones craving for cock!!!
Joe, don\'t get me started.
Post by: FrankZappa on January 25, 2004, 05:20:40 am
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
Also Leith, the Media is very Liberal. So don\'t say that I\'m brainwashed by the TV. You should know that, be a good liberal and turn on CNN.
ok, and you be a good facist and turn on fox news.
Post by: FrankZappa on January 25, 2004, 06:04:55 am
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
Also CIA evidence says that Clinton knew the whereabouts of Bin Landen and did nothing!!!!! A few Cruz missiles, uh... Big deal. Do you not care that we are safer now then we have ever been? Or that kids in Iraq and Afghanistan can go to school now? You seem to have lost touch with whats going on. I can\'t wait till Bush gets reelected so you can bitch and mone.
Ok, but we also supported Bin Laden financially all throughout the 80\'s. With Clinton and Bin Laden, everyone in america was so caught up in the sex scandals that they had blind eyes to world events and it was made up in the press as clinton wagging the dog when we bombed. I agree Bin Laden should have been gone after better by clinton, but I also have to agree with DB. Bush was all behind finding Bin Laden, we were searching caves, and then all of the sudden, Bush stopped mentioning Bin Laden completely and it was all about Sadam. When asked, he said sadam must be hiding Bin Laden, and according to his own rules of hiding terrorist, he declared war on Sadam. Yes, sadam was evil, but it does come off more as Jr. trying to get the guy his dad couldn\'t rather than finding Bin Laden. As you yourself mentioned, Sadam was left in power because even though they knew he was bad, they didn’t want to risk someone worse coming into power after him, and Clinton didn’t want to commit to reconstruction. All following quotes are directly from Bush’s speech, full text available here.
The Economy
I dont see massive tax cuts as a way to boost the economy. Tax cuts are a good way to get into office, but if you think you can solve the deficit just by giving away money in hopes people will spend it more, your going to only sink deeper into debt. The only reason that the economy is so important to bush all of the sudden is because he knows that it was the economy that held his father from re-election. Bush is going to talk up as much as he can from here on out about how great the economy as a strong point for re-election. Nothing he has done yet has proved to me that he is good with the economy. The tax break letter (which I still have) reads more like a publishers clearing house announcement than a solution to the budget. As he said:
"After recession, terrorist attacks, corporate scandals, and stock market declines, our economy is recovering - yet it is not growing fast enough, or strongly enough. "
and
"A family of four with an income of $40,000 would see their federal income taxes fall from $1,178 to $45 per year. "
and
"More jobs mean more taxpayers - and higher revenues to our government. "
OK, so if we drop the amount of money that people owe us per year by more than half, and twice as many people get new jobs, we\'re still pulling in the same amount of money. Seeing how we’ve already sunk much deeper due to a sluggish post- 9/11 economy, that means if anything we’ll still be way in the red long after the next election. I\'m all for everyone having a job and earning their own, but I dont see the tax break as a way. If you want to create more small business, then create better tax breaks for small business and start up business, not individuals. I’ll agree with Tiedye that its easy to say ‘why don’t they just go get a job’, but the fact is that there aren’t enough jobs out there that pay enough to support a person. Yea, you could always go work at McDonalds and earn your minimum wage $5.15, but face it, people are lazy. They know they can work there asses off and earn a cool 206$ pre tax a week, or they can sit on there ass and, for example in Connecticut earn up to 429$ a week. source. What would you do if you knew you could earn twice as much as you do now just to stay at home? This is why communisms failed. So, yea, it pisses me off that some people are sucking off my taxes like this, but not everyone who is unemployed is doing this. Most want to work, but simply can’t find something.
The Environment
"Join me in this important innovation - to make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of energy."
This statement encapsulates Bush completely. Bush wants to make it so that we get all of our fossil fuels from america. He proposed drilling in alaska. America said no, and within a week we were at war. Now he\'s pushing the drilling again. Bush doesn’t care if the drilling starts now. All he wants is the permission to put the drills in place, because once they are their, its going to be impossible to stop their usage. At the same time, the winners in war have always taken the spoils, and while no soldiers are (leagally) walking out of Sadams palaces and mailing stuff back home, contracts are being put into place for American companies to set up business in Iran, and most of them are friends of the bush administration. Money is being made, and we are exploiting the countries resources.
War
“All told, more than 3,000 suspected terrorists have been arrested in many countries. And many others have met a different fate.
Let\'s put it this way, they are no longer a problem for the United States and our friends and allies.”
So, you’ve killed them. Is it that hard to say? That’s what happens during war, people die.
I ask you tonight to add to our future security with a major research and production effort to guard our people against bio-terrorism, called Project Bioshield.”
Wow, a defensive move from bush. I gotta say, I never saw that coming, however this sounds like star wars all over again...
In Iran, we continue to see a government that represses its people, pursues weapons of mass destruction, and supports terror.
We see a government with WOMD? What report is he reading?
Iranians, like all people, have a right to choose their own government, and determine their own destiny - and the United States supports their aspirations to live in freedom.
Yes, as long as its facistic, and we approve of the person in power. This is no different than the Honduras / Standard Fruit scandal of the 50’s.
Sadam:
A brutal dictator, with a history of reckless aggression... with ties to terrorism... with great potential wealth... will not be permitted to dominate a vital region and threaten the United States.
Yet I should vote for you because...
He pursued chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons even while inspectors were in his country."
Right, like that aspirin factory we took out.
"He has shown instead his utter contempt for the United Nations, and for the opinion of the world."
And how exactly did you respond when the UN said no to your invasion? You went against them, with only one other major force following, while a great percentage of both populous in England and the US were against it.
"The 108 UN weapons inspectors were not sent to conduct a scavenger hunt for hidden materials across a country the size of California."
Um, yes they were. When Bush made the statement that Sadam had weapons, the UN sent in inspectors to look. Just because they didnt find them where you thought they were doesnt mean they do or dont exists. So, the inspectors started looking randomly for them, and still found nothing.
So I don’t like bush, but I wasn’t crazy about a lot of Clintons moves either. Its not because he’s facist, I just don’t trust him. He has too many agendas going at once and he doesn’t finish anything. I’m all for space exploration, but much like the economy, Bush is just trying to find a foothold in the history books. If he’s remembered as the man who colonized the moon, maybe future generations will pay less attention to the other asinine things he’s done, the same way most people tend to forget about JFK and the Cuban missile crisis with the bay of pigs. No president is going to do everything exactly the way everyone wants, but Bush is one of the worst in my opnion.
I\'m living in Rome and you\'re debating re-electing Nero. Eventually, its all gonna burn.
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 25, 2004, 09:02:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by FrankZappa
ok, and you be a good facist and turn on fox news.
That\'s my news station.
Post by: realisthis on January 25, 2004, 01:28:33 pm
Btw...http://www.fair.org and youll see how how much they spin everything and how really fair and accurate their reporting is...
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 25, 2004, 02:47:46 pm
Lets just sum it up like this, i have my views. You have your views. That\'s how I would sum up this thread. No one here is going to make me change my views.
Post by: freddiewaht on January 25, 2004, 04:38:36 pm
Post by: Overexjoesure on January 25, 2004, 05:02:13 pm
Post by: realisthis on January 25, 2004, 07:07:30 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 25, 2004, 08:00:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by freddiewaht
grayson,im gay..
You have a wife and kid. Plus whats the point of your comment?
Post by: leith on January 26, 2004, 12:39:19 am
Either that or the wife and kid are a beard. ;)
Post by: tmn8r1 on January 28, 2004, 02:09:37 pm
Gray, way out of line dude. You have to respect peoples ideas no matter how different, that is why we have a system such as democracy. facist or facist, Independent or Green Party, most people want to see whats best for this country and hopefully not themselves. Politics blurs that line sometimes and it shouldn\'t start here. We in life should always lead by example and the least we can do is respect each other on this forum.
Gays - should be allowed to marry. Nuf said. It\'ll be hard to change facist opinion on them with Falwell in the midst.
WMD - tough subject. The president in that speech did tell the amercian public he had WMD\'s in IRAQ and through fear he controlled public opinion. HOWEVER, I watched Colin Powell speak in front of the UN and I believe to this day, we went to war because, Saddam was in violation of many UN Resolutions and the UN (most the countries in the world) drafted a resolution that called for ACTION if Saddam didn\'t comply with the resolution.
At this point what are we to do?? what good is a resolution of the world if no one is willing to implement it??
I thought this was good in Bush\'s speech, "Nine months of intense negotiations involving the United States and Great Britain succeeded with Libya, while 12 years of diplomacy with Iraq did not. And one reason is clear: For diplomacy to be effective, words must be credible, and no one can now doubt the word of America."
Is this whole campaign aggressive, yes. But it can work, it\'ll send a message to terrorists across the world that we mean business. We already know that they mean business. Hopefully with Iraq & Afghanistan self-governing soon, it\'ll send a message to that region which is so under-developed. I\'m not saying completely westernize them, I just think they need to catch up with the times a bit.
Also terrorists, al-qaeda, gihad, hamas all are anti-america for one thing - we support ISRAEL. They will not stop until we stop supporting them which is a terrorist nation in there eyes and guess what, that isn\'t going to happen!!!!
just my 2 cents. we could talk about this for hours but i just wanted too throw some things out there. all good talks, lets listen more.
ps. gray - you need to be open to change, it is the only way you will grow.
tim palmieri
Post by: oldnewbie on January 28, 2004, 03:05:33 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 28, 2004, 03:22:10 pm
To each his own.
Post by: oldnewbie on January 28, 2004, 03:41:43 pm
Post by: Marcial on January 28, 2004, 03:44:55 pm
Here are my opinions... short & to the point...
Gays: Let them marry... to each his own... screw what the bible says. I hate it when Christians try to stick their nose into places where it doesn\'t belong. You mind your business & I\'ll mind mine.
WMD: Who cares if we ever find any? Not me. Saddam was a brutal ruler who killed & tortured his own people... if Bush lied to justify taking him out of power, I really could care less. The world is a safer, better place without him in power. I don\'t think that anyone could argue against that. Plus, as an added bonus, look at how much gas prices have dropped! I have to use premium in my car... that shit ain\'t cheap!
Other Countries\' Opinion of the USA: Let them hate us. They are all jealous of the wealth & prosperity that we have in this country. Our country is founded on ideas that make most other governments cringe. Think about this.... how did one of the youngest countries (USA) by many hundreds if not thousands of years get to be the wealthiest & most powerful? Obviously, we are doing something right... and that scares other countries... every person on earth should be entitled to the same liberties & freedoms that we are. If other governments don\'t agree, then, for that reason alone, we should bomb them as well and liberate their people. Our way is the best. Period. I don\'t care how they\'ve been doing it in China or India for the past 10,000 years... we\'ve only been at it for around 250 years & here we are... far ahead of them in almost any category you can quantify.
As you can probably tell from this rant, I am generally a facist. However, on social issues, like gay marriage, I am as liberal as they get... you stay out of my way, I\'ll stay out of yours. Fiscally, I am an extreme conservative. I hate paying taxes. When I look at my paycheck & see how much gets taken out, it makes me want to puke. I have no problems paying taxes for things like education, infrastructure, military, and even the space program.... things that I personally use & benefit from... BUT, facists like to take care of people too much... it\'s a dog eat dog world out there... eveyone fending for themselves... only YOU can decide what\'s going to happen with YOUR life... the sooner people realize this & stop feeling like the government owes them something for nothing, the better off they\'ll be... I\'m sick of MY hard earned money, that I work 60-70 hours a week for, going towards food stamps & to buy shoes for crack babies! Get off your ass & start contributing to society, or starve in the street for all I care. NO HANDOUTS!
Post by: aJwvof on January 28, 2004, 05:24:46 pm
Quote
I, myself, will choose not to vote rather than vote for one of the unworthly facists and I sure as hell wouldn\'t vote for Bush.
1) please don\'t bitch about the next 4 years if you don\'t vote and bush is back in office. you don\'t vote don\'t talk about politics bc you wasted a vote.
2) learn how to spell disgusted!! discusted is not a word.
Post by: aJwvof on January 28, 2004, 05:29:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
1.) I agree with him 100% about same sex marriage. I think that it\'s disgusting and that it\'s a sin. I would not not honor a same sex marriage as they are illegal and just plain wrong.
that is so close minded and scary. first it was the irish, then the blacks and the jews and women ... do we really need to hate our fellow men and women bc we don\'t agree with their beliefs? you may be a homophobe but whether or not it is a sin doesn\'t matter in the US. this isn\'t the catholic church of the united states of america. there is nothing wrong with it. ignorance never solves anything.
do you know any gay people? or are you afraid of them rubbing off on you?
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 28, 2004, 05:37:27 pm
Post by: kindm's on January 28, 2004, 06:34:26 pm
tiedyetoga says:
"Who knows if there is a GOD? I don\'t and you don\'t, so that excuse doesn\'t work."
as well as:
"1.) I agree with him 100% about same sex marriage. I think that it\'s disgusting and that it\'s a sin. I would not not honor a same sex marriage as they are illegal and just plain wrong."
So if you don\'t know if there is a GOD then how do you know sin ? isn\'t sin defined by ones religious beliefs. And if you believe then you KNOW there is a GOD, no ?
and Marcial says:
"Our way is the best. Period. I don\'t care how they\'ve been doing it in China or India for the past 10,000 years... we\'ve only been at it for around 250 years & here we are... far ahead of them in almost any category you can quantify."
I don\'t even know what to say about this statement. Ahead of them how? It certainly isn\'t our ability in math or science or technology for that matter. The simply fact is we dominate the Military landscape. We are far behind most industrialized nations in most respects. Health care, education, crime, etc etc. If you mean our standard of living maybe but we are not #1 in average household incomes. If you mean the freedoms that you and I get to enjoy then you have an argument but day by day those freedoms that make our country different are being widdled away.
as well as:
"I\'m sick of MY hard earned money, that I work 60-70 hours a week for, going towards food stamps & to buy shoes for crack babies! Get off your ass & start contributing to society, or starve in the street for all I care. NO HANDOUTS!"
Would you have any issue with taking HANDOUTS as you call them if you were unexpectedly fired or lost your job ?? would you call them handouts then? would you EXPECT something from the Government after working 60 - 70 hours and paying out the ass in taxes ? I expect that you would and deservedly so. I think that there is a misconception about wellfare and how it works. It would seem that there is still some stereotypes to overcome for those who are on welfare. And what is wrong with shoes for crack babies ? Babies need shoes don\'t they ? I personally would rather my taxes go to help a poor family in the US then any family in IRAQ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
87 Billion dollars which was the extension asked for and given to this administration for IRAQ is more then the budget for Education, Infrastructure (roads and Highways) and HOMELAND security combined
Post by: Overexjoesure on January 28, 2004, 06:38:26 pm
Wherever we\'re from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
It\'s gonna take a lot more
Than tryin\' to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether
They call it THE EARTH
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
\'Cause we behave the same . . .
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near \'n far
Dumb all over,
Black \'n white
People, we is not wrapped tight
Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religious fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin\' the Bible
Tells the story
\'N makes the details
Sound real gory
\'Bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Don\'t believe in the book
We got over here
You can\'t run a race
Without no feet
\'N pretty soon
There won\'t be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religious fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it won\'t blow up
\'N disappear
It\'ll just look ugly
For a thousand years . . . )
You can\'t run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state
TO ARMS! TO ARMS!
Hooray! That\'s great
Two legs ain\'t bad
Unless there\'s a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (Get Down!)
Not his, not hers (but what the hey?)
The Good Book says:
"It gotta be that way!"
But their book says:
"REVENGE THE CRUSADES . . .
With whips \'n chains
\'N hand grenades . . . "
TWO ARMS? TWO ARMS?
Have another and another
Our God says:
"There ain\'t no other!"
Our God says
"It\'s all okay!"
Our God says
"This is the way!"
It says in the book:
"Burn \'n destroy . . .
\'N repent, \'n redeem
\'N revenge, \'n deploy
\'N rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
\'Cause they don\'t go for what\'s in the book
\'N that makes \'em BAD
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice French bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise
OUR GOD
("Cause he can really take care of business!")
And when his humble TV servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blonde wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
It\'s okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
\'Cause if we don\'t do it,
We ain\'t gwine up to hebbin!
(Depending on which book you\'re using at the time . . . Can\'t use theirs . . . it don\'t work . . . it\'s all lies . . . Gotta use mine . . . )
Ain\'t that right?
That\'s what they say
Every night . . .
Every day . . .
Hey, we can\'t really be dumb
If we\'re just following God\'s Orders
Hey, Let\'s get serious . . .
God knows what he\'s doin\' . . .
He wrote this book here
An\' the book says:
"He made us all to be just like Him," so . . .
If we\'re dumb . . .
Then God is dumb . . .
(An\' maybe even a little ugly on the side)
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
DUMB ALL OVER
A LITTLE UGLY ON THE SIDE
I figured it was about time we threw Frank into the mix;)
Post by: Overexjoesure on January 28, 2004, 06:39:30 pm
For what it\'s worth
When it says that the meek
Shall inherit the Earth
Well, I heard that some sheik
Has bought New Jersey last week
\'N you suckers ain\'t gettin\' nothin\'
Is Hare Rama really wrong
If you wander around
With a napkin on
With a bell on a stick
An\' your hair is all gone . . .
(The geek shall inherit nothin\')
You say yer life\'s a bum deal
\'N yer up against the wall . . .
Well, people, you ain\'t even got no kinda
Deal at all
\'Cause what they do
In Washington
They just takes care of NUMBER ONE
An\' NUMBER ONE ain\'t YOU
You ain\'t even NUMBER TWO
Those Jesus Freaks
Well, they\'re friendly but
The shit they believe
Has got their minds all shut
An\' they don\'t even care
When the church takes a cut
Ain\'t it bleak when you got so much nothin\'
(So whaddya do? Hey!)
Eat that pork
Eat that ham
Laugh till ya choke
On Billy Graham
Moses, Aaron \'n Abraham . . .
They\'re all a waste of time
\'N it\'s your ass that\'s on the line
(IT\'S YOUR ASS THAT\'S ON THE LINE)
Do what you wanna
Do what you will
Just don\'t mess up
Your neighbor\'s thrill
\'N when you pay the bill
Kindly leave a little tip
And help the next poor sucker
On his one way trip . . .
SOME TAKE THE BIBLE . . .
FOr now:):)
Post by: Marcial on January 28, 2004, 07:48:53 pm
If I unexpectedly lost my job I would get another job. It may be flipping burgers, digging ditches, or doing some other type of manual labor, but I would find a job before I would take handouts from the gov. Every able-bodied person should be working. And, nothing is wrong with crack babies having shoes... yes, babies need shoes... as long as I\'m not the one paying for them! I\'ll take care of MY babies, but not everyone elses....
Post by: kindm's on January 28, 2004, 08:17:22 pm
We are the MOST POWERFUL NATION for 1 reason, our Nuclear stockpile. If you think for a minute the US doesn\'t use its military strenght as a barginig chip when doing business you are kidding yourself. The reason people pay attention to us is our Military and our citizens thirst for PRODUCTS.
And I guess our ideas of a civilizied society are different. I would still prefer to help US citizens, familys in need. I mean to all lifetime abusers of the system I agree with you that they should have toprovide for themselves but I am not above helping people in need. Giving them clothes and shelter, how many victims of fires loose everything. Sure it is easy to turn your back on people in need and say they should have planned better, or they should have had insurance or they should work harder etc etc. I am old enough to know that life isn\'t that cut and dry there are shades of GRAY to everything.
Ever read the story of the Good Summaritan ?
Post by: realisthis on January 29, 2004, 12:26:30 am
Post by: FrankZappa on January 29, 2004, 06:26:35 am
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
Think about this.... how did one of the youngest countries (USA) by many hundreds if not thousands of years get to be the wealthiest & most powerful? Obviously, we are doing something right... and that scares other countries...
Marcial, I agree with (some) of what you say, but check your facts first. A quick history of US wealth:
Colonies: no official income, unless your underselling the millions of natural resources and not telling Great Britain about it. This is the same era where we did things like buying new york state for products worth 60$ dutch.
Revolutionary war: went bankrupted, if it wasn’t for FRANCE, we never would have kept going the first few years.
Post war: States fight amongst themselves, no national finance as of yet set up. Each state has its own currency, each currency made by individual banks. Get too far away from the bank that made the money, and the value dropped bc now the person taking it had to travel that much further away just to get there money. Go too far away (like across state lines) and it’s worthless. Also, thanks to napoleons failing war, which lead to the Louisiana Purchase, and later manifest destiny (GOD wants America to go from coast to coast), our natural resources and farmland grew and grew. Remember, America was originally suppose to only go as far inland as the appalachians, but then lack of space and want of money lead settlers to move into Ohio and take the land from the Indians. Then Ohio wasn\'t enough, then (etc.)
National Lottery: To raise money, a national lottery was created. The drawing was held over by months until enough tickets had been bought. Then a number was drawn that was higher than the last ticket issued. As a result, no winner and the house (government) took it all.
Gold and Civil war: good $$ in northern and southern states coming in as plantations and factories are up and running. Gold found in San fran in 1848, but with the only mint in phili, it takes just as much time to move the gold to mint and put in the economy as it does to get out there from phili to go mine it. A mint is set up in San Fran just in time for war to break out in 1861.
post war: a little better as the money comes in from san fran and the newly discovered gold in alaska in 1896.
ww1: good $$ from war production, but many lives lost.
depression: market crash, no money, no job, prohibition, dust bowls, new deals, ect.
WWII: Finally, here is where our money comes from. Like WW1, we made out good on industry, but ten fold this time. Long before we officially joined, we were supplying the allies with materials from clothes to battleships. After the war, besides still owing us for the goods we gave them, Europe’s economy was in the shiter, and we bailed them out.
So "Obviously, we are doing something right... and that scares other countries." Yea, we stumbled into wealth by accident (twice), and used our vast natural resources (that we stole) to fund the rest of the world. Then we gave them the bill. We also developed nuclear weapons, mostly by making the top german scientist instant americans and having them work with our guys on the Manhattan project after we caught them trying to escape to japan. So, we have the biggest guns, and most of you owe us money. Obviously.
Post by: aJwvof on January 29, 2004, 12:18:40 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
If I unexpectedly lost my job I would get another job. It may be flipping burgers, digging ditches, or doing some other type of manual labor, but I would find a job before I would take handouts from the gov. Every able-bodied person should be working. And, nothing is wrong with crack babies having shoes... yes, babies need shoes... as long as I\'m not the one paying for them! I\'ll take care of MY babies, but not everyone elses.... [/B]
everyone says oh yeah i would work at mcdonald\'s blah blah blah and you are full of shit. people call themselves open mind and accepting but only when they benefit from it. those that abuse the system should be dealt with, but why should a crack baby suffer? did they smoke crack? did they ask to be born ? NO it is all about circumstance and what you are born into ... some people are born well off some are not.
you can say go get a job as the easy way out but when the funding for education drops and drops and they put into effect policy no child left behind it doesn\'t help make our society better it actually hurts the schools and more importantly the children and our countries future. how can you get a job if you can\'t read?!
Post by: davepeck on January 29, 2004, 12:47:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by aJwvof
everyone says oh yeah i would work at mcdonald\'s blah blah blah and you are full of shit. people call themselves open mind and accepting but only when they benefit from it. those that abuse the system should be dealt with, but why should a crack baby suffer? did they smoke crack? did they ask to be born ? NO it is all about circumstance and what you are born into ... some people are born well off some are not.
excellent point, aj.
i\'ve steered clear of this thread to this point, but i was gonna chime in on this, because it got to me.. aj is exactly right about this. a baby cannot help what he or she is born into. sure, you can blame the parents or whoever you want for having a baby in the first place, but once it\'s done, it\'s done. and no child deserves to go uncared for just because their parents were assholes.
my wife is a nurse who works in the newborn intensive care unit at yale. she busts her ass day and night, taking care of sick babies, many of which are what you would call crack babies. where she works, a baby born over 1 pound is considered heavy/lucky, and many (not all) of these babies of these babies are born the way they are because of the behavior of their parents.
so should these babies not be cared for? is it a waste of time for hospitals to take care of crack babies? i sure as hell know that if i were born into abnormal circumstances as a result of stupid parents, i\'d want someone to help me out. these babies/kids need all the help they can get, and it needs to start at a young age. this is the only way for these kids to grow up and not follow in their parents\' footsteps and make crack babies of their own.
\'i don\'t want to do it like my daddy did,
i don\'t want to give it to my baby\'s kid.\'
homophobia: gray, it\'s just not healthy. it\'s no reason to dislike someone. just because you find it disgusting, doesn\'t give you the right to tell other people how to live their lives. public affection is not an excuse either. if you don\'t like it, turn your head. i mean, i hate seeing 2 hot chicks go at it just as much as the next heterosexual male, but i\'m not homophobic. i don\'t like seeing straight couples making out in public either.
in my mind, sexual preference should have nothing to do with politics or religion... but everyone always wants to make it about both. it\'s personal. period. unfortunately, our government believes that all men are not created equal, and gays should be treated differently than heterosexuals.. that i will never understand.
It\'s so hard to face
That in this day and age
Somebody\'s race
Could trigger somebody\'s rage
And somebody\'s preference
Can drive some total stranger
to make somebody, somehow
feel the wrath of their anger
Why were we put here?
What for? we\'re unsure
We sure weren\'t put here to hate
Be racist, be sexist
Be bigots, be sure
We won\'t stand for your hate
Why so cut and dry
A simple concept missed
Give tolerance a try
This confusion still exists
Ignorant mongers, no area\'s gray
Couldn\'t be any wronger in this age and day
Why were we put here?
What for? we\'re unsure
We sure weren\'t put here to hate
Be racist, be sexist
Be bigots, be sure
We won\'t stand for your hate
Now how far have we come?
How come there still are some
Who won\'t let some march
To the beat of a different drum
To face it, it\'s so hard
You must be on your guard
It\'s not okay
And you\'re not free to be a different way
Let\'s try to erase it, it\'s time that we face it
If we don\'t, then who will? shame on us
Let\'s try to erase it, it\'s time that we face it
Let\'s face it, the time is upon us
Post by: tiedyetoga on January 29, 2004, 04:15:08 pm
Post by: FrankZappa on January 30, 2004, 05:42:27 am
Post by: Marcial on January 30, 2004, 11:28:44 am
You know, there is a society where everyone is given what they need in order to survive... food, healthcare, education, shelter, and whatever else they need to live, all provided by the Government & spread equally across the population... ever heard of Cuba? It\'s called COMMUNISM.
Maybe I\'m a selfish dick. But you know what? This is America & that is my right.
Post by: leith on January 30, 2004, 11:54:54 am
Btw Cuba is run by a Dictator using some of communism\'s ideas.
Post by: Marcial on January 30, 2004, 01:04:31 pm
SHOW ME THE MONEY!
Post by: FrankZappa on January 30, 2004, 01:16:41 pm
take two people living in a comunist country. One works his ass off every day and takes pride in his work. The other sleeps all day and watches jerry springer when he\'s awake while eating cookie dough.
Both people are entitled to the same benifits, including food, health, entertainment, or \'an equal share of the countries production\'. So, the person that works his ass off is going to say "Why the hell am I busting my butt? I want to sleep all day too!", and he quits his job. As a result, No production is made, and that which is is of poor quality.
Post by: jocelyn on January 30, 2004, 02:10:22 pm
Suggested reading: Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting by in America by Barbara Ehrenreich. Millions of Americans work full time, year round, for peverty-level wages. Ehrenreich decided to join them, inspired in part by the rhetoric surrounding welfare reform, which promised that any job equals a better life. Good reading.
Post by: jocelyn on January 30, 2004, 02:11:10 pm
Post by: skalnbyc on February 02, 2004, 11:16:32 pm
I\'m sick of the stupid hippies that don\'t want to work. So many of them complain constantly and think that life is only about live music and ****. Set some goals and accomplish something please. They don\'t want to work very hard yet they want the hardworkers to cover their health insurance.
Looking around the Iron Horse the other night made me realize that many of the stinky hippie wastoids present had absolutely no souls and were trying so hard to fit in with their adopted subculture.
I can see right through the hippie fluff and can tell who is genuine and who is out-to-lunch.
There are plenty of genuine hippies but the majority are clueless liberals in training pants that will believe any crap that Ralph Nader or Michael Moore tells them.
The problem is that many of the hippies have never heard any other viewpoints (other than the extreme left) and so they lack any understanding of the big picture.
The problem begins on University campuses, where one point of view is presented and the other side is left unacknowledged or degraded.
I can\'t stand it when sociology majors try to debate economics. If you are simply speaking with your heart and lack any knowledge of the fundamentals that determine the momentum of economies and capital markets, then please don\'t pretend you are capable of debate. You can argue that tax cuts take away money from the services intended for the disadvantged, but you cannot make the case that the tax cuts initiated by Bush were harmful to our economy. Please read the chapter on debt financing and the effects of budget deficits while you are at it. You may realize that the "crisis" may have been overstated.
I am a fiscal conservative but am libertarian at heart. The translation is that I believe that individuals and private institutions make the markets efficient and that I should be able to use consume/invest/donate my money as I see fit. The less intervention from the bureaucratic hacks the better (though we do need a regulatory framework that can keep the markets running effeciently in circumstances of abuse and crisis).
I also believe you should be able to make choices in your life as you see fit, so long as you don\'t violate the liberty of others. If the hippies want to smoke **** all day long at the festivals and protests, so be it. They know what is best for them.
I really don\'t hate hippies but simply think that many particpants in the jam scene are some of the most politically ignorant people.
I also don\'t like the tactics they employ during debate. They scream and yell to prevent you from getting your point across and always try to smear you in any way the can. The only reason that liberals get make any progress is because they disguise emotion as fact and make you feel like their opinion is the only right answer. If you do not agree, you are racist, sexist, classist, etc.
Get a subscription to the Wall Street Journal.
The government is the most inefficient business and always lags the private sector by 5-10 years.
Post by: Marcial on February 02, 2004, 11:41:11 pm
Amen, bro!
Post by: skalnbyc on February 03, 2004, 08:03:17 am
There are many sociological challenges in this nation, but the answer isn\'t entitlement to everything. Most schools are excellent or adequate but there are too many children that come from homes/neighborhoods that do not foster an interest in education.
Is the shoddy family structure in the poor neighborhoods the fault of President Bush? The fact that 70% of all inner city babies are born with no father present at home is self-imposed economic inequality and hardship. Maybe the absence of the father leaves children hungry and vulnerable to the elements of urban life.
Single parent families = poverty.
The government is already a freedom subduing monster yet there are still hungry children. Charitable organizations with no connection to the government are the people who run most of the food banks, shelters, college assistance programs and medical research labs. These organizations receive funding from private donors and are more capable of addressing the needs of America.
The government is never in the lead.
Post by: skalnbyc on February 03, 2004, 08:12:03 am
I guess I prefer to be a social contrarian. If you say or do A, I want to do B. It\'s kind of like the $30 Abercrombie T-shirts and carpenter pants. If everyone has them, I am going to steer clear of them.
Post by: jefft on February 04, 2004, 07:49:03 pm
Post by: Mark on February 12, 2004, 10:26:23 am
Post by: Mark on February 12, 2004, 11:34:48 am
http://www.southpoledudes.com/dishonestdubya.html
Post by: tiedyetoga on February 12, 2004, 12:45:15 pm
Post by: Mark on February 12, 2004, 01:36:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
The thread that won\'t die.
Should be going strong till November!
Post by: leith on February 12, 2004, 01:38:52 pm
Post by: jocelyn on February 12, 2004, 01:58:21 pm
Quote
The thread that won\'t die.
Serisouly. If this thread is going to keep going, could someone please please change the way "disgusted" is spelled in the thread title? I know it\'s trite and I know I sound like a bitch even commenting on it... but really, it\'s driving me fucking nuts.
Post by: realisthis on February 12, 2004, 02:02:06 pm
Post by: jocelyn on February 12, 2004, 02:07:15 pm
Post by: oldnewbie on February 12, 2004, 02:29:58 pm
Post by: Mark on February 12, 2004, 02:56:48 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on February 12, 2004, 03:09:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mark
Should be going strong till November!
I can\'t wait... There is going to be some dirty politics going on. I\'m all registered to volunteer. I can\'t wait till Bush gets re-elected. ehhehehehe....
Post by: Mark on February 12, 2004, 04:02:17 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on February 12, 2004, 04:28:08 pm
Post by: Mark on February 12, 2004, 05:41:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
I can\'t wait... There is going to be some dirty politics going on. I\'m all registered to volunteer. I can\'t wait till Bush gets re-elected. ehhehehehe....
Of course there is going to be dirty politics, that\'s how he got in office (notice I said "got in" and not "elected"), and that is the only way he could get in again!
Post by: skalnbyc on February 12, 2004, 11:09:36 pm
To all the hippies, please take some economics and finance courses before you try to smear Bush\'s economic record.
His biggest blunder was steel tariffs.
If anyone needs some basic lessons on why Bush (or Clinton) is not responsible for market bubbles and job losses, I will clue you in.
I am definitely going to support Bush for economics alone. I want my tax liability to decrease.
Though I disagree with Bush on some social issues, I still think he is more conscious of the Bill of Rights than John Kerry is. The facists will strip you of your first and second amendment rights (that many of you socialists are willing to forfeit because you do not know their historical and contemporary importance). Stop whining about the Patriot act and stand up for the Constitution. You don\'t know why or how the facists accomplish this nor do you care because you busy reading biased publications from the New York Times and Green Party enthusiasts.
Post by: skalnbyc on February 12, 2004, 11:14:12 pm
My mention of the Patriot Act is going to set off some serious ranting that I won\'t bother to look over so save your breath. My specialties are finance and the 2nd amendement so bring it on!!!
Post by: leith on February 13, 2004, 03:26:23 am
So you will discuss how Bush will run this country into the ground financially causing all of us to be glad we have the 2nd amendment allowing us to carry guns so we can fend off all the disillusioned facists?
Bush is plainly a backtracking liar that can not even provide his "honorable discharge" he keeps saying he recieved from National Guard duty. LOL National Guard? Come On. Everyone I know that has one from a real service proudly displays it. Real Commander-In-Chief we got there huh? No wonder he started a war talk abt a chip on his shoulder.
Post by: Mark on February 13, 2004, 02:50:57 pm
Quote
Originally posted by alexanderzurflu
To all the hippies, please take some economics and finance courses before you try to smear Bush\'s economic record.
Why do you keep calling everyone hippies? Personally I don\'t know of any "hippies" that hang around here. Since you are a self proclaimed expert in finances, I will leave that to you. I studied science and geology, and have been happy to have made a living doing just that for the past 20+ years while raising a family and paying shitloads of taxes. I do think that too much credit is given to whoever is is in power, the economy is cyclical, always has been and always will.
I do however know something about human integrity, and that is something George W. doesn\'t have one shred of.
Post by: Marcial on February 13, 2004, 03:43:45 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mark
I do however know something about human integrity, and that is something George W. doesn\'t have one shred of.
Ouch!
How do you figure that?
I guess every liberal\'s favorite pres, Slick Willy Clinton, showed tons of integrity while he was getting blown in the oval office by a teenage intern??
No one has a spotless record & every president from now on will have shit dug up about them after they get into office. People need to stop dwelling on these things and focusing on the positive. Such as the $350 check that most Americans received shortly after my man G Dub took office (but I guess most of you liberals sent your\'s back, right? LOL). Or the fact that an evil dictator\'s people have been liberated & gas prices have been brought to an affordable level all in one fell swoop...
Post by: leith on February 13, 2004, 04:40:59 pm
Post by: Marcial on February 13, 2004, 04:52:52 pm
Right! You are exactly right. Of course we have to benefit to justify it... is that wrong?
Post by: Mark on February 13, 2004, 05:04:44 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
I guess every liberal\'s favorite pres, Slick Willy Clinton, showed tons of integrity while he was getting blown in the oval office by a teenage intern...
What makes you think I\'m a liberal? I\'m not, and far from it. Why does everyone around here have to label and pidgeonhole people: hippies, liberals, whatever. FYI I despise Clinton, I think he is a sleazebag, and found it incredibley embarrassing that my children had to witness and understand what this creep, our president did!
Post by: Mark on February 13, 2004, 05:15:12 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
and focusing on the positive. Such as the $350 check that most Americans received shortly after my man G Dub took office
Yeah, that $350 check turned the economy around, right down the toilet. Leith is right, a lame publicity stunt, nothing more. Our lame ass governor did the same thing when he got elected, a whopping $150 check, BFD! His impeachment hearings are in process as we speak! Another facist greedy pig who cares about one thing: $$$ for him and his cronies (most of whom, in this case have already been convicted and sent to the slammer!)
Are we having fun yet?
Post by: leith on February 13, 2004, 05:25:34 pm
I understand that many people these days do not know what altruism is and maybe a little more education would help to bring this quality out in the younger generations. My point is if we are going to play World Police we need to be consistent. As it is most of the world is looking @ us as the terrorists for the exact reason you mention. We only stick our dick into places that will benefit us.If we truly wanted to liberate people and spread democracy we would plain and simple. We have THE most advanced military in the World,if we wanted to be the good guys for real we could. Be Real.
Post by: Marcial on February 13, 2004, 05:30:48 pm
Any of you who did, please respond.
Post by: Todd on February 13, 2004, 05:35:50 pm
Post by: leith on February 13, 2004, 05:43:38 pm
Post by: Marcial on February 13, 2004, 05:44:07 pm
Post by: Marcial on February 13, 2004, 05:45:26 pm
LOL!!!!!!
Post by: Marcial on February 13, 2004, 05:47:14 pm
Post by: leith on February 13, 2004, 06:22:19 pm
If you do not know Amvet\'s is American Veteran\'s charity.
Post by: freddiewaht on February 13, 2004, 06:39:48 pm
Post by: Mark on February 13, 2004, 06:44:53 pm
I will again be participating in the MS Walk this April, and the Relay for Life this June, so if you want to make a donation, BRING IT ON!
Oh yeah, click here once a day:
http://www.thehungersite.com
Post by: Marcial on February 13, 2004, 07:19:07 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Where do you come off? Yeah to stay afloat in this quagmire called the U.S. economy i had to pay off some credit. I figured since I volunteer every holiday season both Thanksgiving and Christmas( for the past 13 years) to help feed the homeless,they would not mind. As for posting receipts they would be check copies and that info is not getting posted. U can believe me or not but if you knew me at all u know all this to be true. So instead of thinking you\'re calling me out why don\'t you put your time to better use and try to figure out a way to help those in need in your area. If you think there is nothing u can do that anyone deserves. I am sure you can give to Amvet\'s @ least.
If you do not know Amvet\'s is American Veteran\'s charity.
Easy there big fella.... I was only kidding around... about posting your receipts.... don\'t get all worked up. I was merely making a point that you used your refund to help YOURSELF... just like I did.
Post by: leith on February 13, 2004, 09:05:40 pm
I spent some of my refund on myself yeah i admit it but I also gave alot of it away. I am not stupid enough to let my anger w/ my government help place me further into debt. I donate $$ with every tax refund and @ least 3x a year. So i do not think i did like you did. I do not know you but it seems to me, you figure giving to charity is a waste whereas I do not.
Post by: tiedyetoga on February 13, 2004, 10:28:37 pm
Post by: leith on February 13, 2004, 11:28:28 pm
Post by: Marcial on February 13, 2004, 11:37:04 pm
Some of you may know that I breed rare pythons as a hobby & side business to my day job. Every year, lots of breeders of all kinds of reptiles & amphibians get together for an Expo in Maryland where all of the proceeds from the door go to buy rainforest land in Costa Rica. So far, we have purchased close to 3,000 acres of pristine rainforest. To me, this is a worthwile charity...
Post by: leith on February 14, 2004, 12:10:10 am
Post by: FrankZappa on February 14, 2004, 06:02:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
I would like to know how many of the people on this board, who were saying how much they love to help people, and what good sumaritans they are, and how I am a jerk for not wanting to help all the crack babies, RETURNED their $350 refund check, with instructions to give it to some charitable organization, or to education, or any of the other causes they love to have to government support.
Any of you who did, please respond.
I did not recieve one because at the time I was still in school and filling as part of my parents household and not as an individual. as a result, I was not able to recieve my 350$, but if I had, I would have put it in the bank. I donate $$ each year much the same way that Marcial does, though I do it mostly through bike tours. While 350$ in wouldn\'t go directly out the same day, I still donate in that range yearly.
Post by: FrankZappa on February 19, 2004, 09:57:34 am
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3501953.stm
Bush speaks against gay weddings
President Bush says he will consider supporting legal changes to prevent gay marriages following hundreds of same-sex unions in San Francisco.
The president said he was troubled by the weddings, and would only support a law backing traditional unions.
More than 2,500 marriage licences have been issued to gays and lesbians.
The city\'s mayor took the initiative, contrary to California state law, because he said that current legislation was discriminatory.
Since Mayor Gavin Newsom allowed same-sex couples to marry, gays and lesbians have travelled from across the US to take part in what they see as a historic moment for gay rights.
But speaking for the first time since the weddings began last week, the president made clear his personal opposition.
"I strongly believe that marriage should be defined as between a man and a woman," said Mr Bush.
"I am troubled by activist judges who are defining marriage. I have watched carefully what\'s happened in San Francisco where licences were being issued, even though the law states otherwise."
When asked whether he was ready to take action, he said that he was "just watching very closely".
"I\'m troubled by what I\'ve seen," he added. "People need to be involved with this decision. Marriage ought to be defined by the people not by the courts, and I\'m watching it carefully."
There are already two legal challenges underway to the decision of San Francisco\'s mayor to issue the wedding licences, and the legal status of gay marriages is being contested elsewhere.
In Massachusetts, a court recently said it was "unconstitutional" to prevent gay and lesbian couples from marrying.
But before the first fully legal weddings can happen there, attempts to block them through amending the constitution are expected.
============================================
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3502867.stm
White House \'Distorting\' Science
President Bush\'s administration has been accused of suppressing and distorting scientific findings that run counter to its own political beliefs.
The charge comes from an American body, the Union of Concerned Scientists, in a statement with more than 60 supporters.
The signatories, who include 12 Nobel Prize winners, say scientific integrity must be restored to policy-making.
The White House called the statement "disappointing" and said decisions were taken on the best available science.
The UCS chairman is Dr Kurt Gottfried, emeritus professor of physics at Cornell University.
Policy implications
He said: "Across a broad range of issues, the administration has undermined the quality of the scientific advisory system and the morale of the government\'s outstanding scientific personnel.
"Whether the issue is lead paint, clean air or climate change, this behaviour has serious consequences for all Americans."
Dr Gottfried said: "We\'re not... taking issue with the administration\'s policies. We\'re taking issue with the administration\'s distortion... of the science related to some of its policies."
Russell Train, one of the statement\'s supporters, headed the Environmental Protection Agency under former facist Presidents Nixon and Ford.
He said: "Science, to quote President Bush\'s father, the former president, relies on freedom of inquiry and objectivity.
"But this administration has obstructed that freedom and distorted that objectivity in ways that were unheard of in any previous administration."
Dr Sherwood Rowland, who won a Nobel Prize for his studies of atmospheric ozone, said the consensus of scientific opinion on climate change was being ignored.
Government reports had been censored to remove views out of line with President Bush\'s policies, he said.
Dr Rowland said: "The public deserves rational decision-making based on the best scientific advice about what is likely to happen, not what political entities might wish to happen."
Scott McClellan, President Bush\'s spokesman, said: "I can assure you that this is an administration that makes decisions based on the best available science."
\'Crude snapshot\'
John Marburger, director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, said he found the statement "somewhat disappointing".
He said it made "some sweeping generalisations about policy in this administration that are based on a random selection of incidents and issues".
Professor Marburger said: "I don\'t think the statement makes the case for the sweeping accusations that it makes."
The UCS website describes the organisation as "an independent non-profit alliance of more than 100,000 concerned citizens and scientists".
Post by: skalnbyc on February 22, 2004, 08:21:57 pm
You are most likely missing all the opportunities available because you have nothing to do but complain about Bush.
Post by: leith on February 22, 2004, 10:23:35 pm
Post by: Marcial on February 22, 2004, 10:43:13 pm
"I like big cars, big boats, big motorcycles, big houses and big campfires. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some governmental stooge with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts for squirting out babies. Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game. I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE? I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion. I don\'t think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door. I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off. When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability. I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English! My father and grandfather didn\'t die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours. I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry self if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can\'t understand the word "freeze" or "stop" in English, see the above lines. I don\'t think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business. We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations. I believe a self-righteous liberal or conservative with a cause is more dangerous than a Hell\'s Angel with an attitude. I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that\'s better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy who invented the Internet to help you. "I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don\'t pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don\'t want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me french fries! I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be "African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don\'t go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. I am proud to be from America and nowhere else. And if you don\'t like my point of view, tough. DON\'T PASS IT ON!!" While life may not be the party we hoped for, while we\'re here we might as well dance."
Post by: leith on February 22, 2004, 11:37:13 pm
Post by: Drew_Kingsley on February 22, 2004, 11:58:52 pm
This thread won\'t die.
Post by: mango lube on February 23, 2004, 03:33:28 am
Post by: Todd on February 23, 2004, 06:32:27 am
Post by: oldnewbie on February 23, 2004, 09:31:48 am
Post by: rustyD on March 01, 2004, 02:58:52 pm
fuc&ing loser....
Post by: jocelyn on March 01, 2004, 03:31:44 pm
Science, however, should not be arguable... No excuse for that. So typical...
Post by: leith on March 01, 2004, 03:40:01 pm
Post by: obsession600 on March 01, 2004, 03:45:08 pm
Post by: rustyD on March 01, 2004, 03:50:12 pm
Marriage is not an "american institution" that needs to be decided by the president and brought into the bill of rights. Not cool! It\'s a private ceremony involving two people. This guy has gone too far with this one. Just because he has this belief doesn\'t mean he should abuse his powerful postion. Asshole...
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 01, 2004, 03:51:47 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 01, 2004, 03:52:15 pm
Post by: Wolfman on March 01, 2004, 04:39:13 pm
Post by: realisthis on March 01, 2004, 04:44:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Wolfman
I have a bad feeling about this thread...
:lol::lol::lol:
Post by: Wolfman on March 01, 2004, 04:46:01 pm
Post by: mango lube on March 01, 2004, 06:17:21 pm
Post by: Mark on March 01, 2004, 06:31:27 pm
What are you trying to do, start trouble??? NO COMMENT!!
Kill this thread now, before some young facist gets hurt!
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 01, 2004, 07:05:09 pm
Post by: leith on March 01, 2004, 07:08:15 pm
Post by: Marcial on March 01, 2004, 07:19:25 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 01, 2004, 08:07:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
I\'m w/ you Gray....
Good man!!!!!
Post by: Mark on March 01, 2004, 08:11:55 pm
Post by: oldnewbie on March 01, 2004, 08:13:12 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 01, 2004, 08:14:12 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 01, 2004, 08:15:14 pm
Quote
Originally posted by oldnewbie
oh....so the rest of us aren\'t good men...and by the way...i hear the gop wants to drug test all web page administrators in the name of national security....
LMAO!!!!!
Post by: oldnewbie on March 01, 2004, 08:17:27 pm
Post by: Mark on March 01, 2004, 08:40:59 pm
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 01, 2004, 08:45:19 pm
Post by: davepeck on March 01, 2004, 09:09:39 pm
Post by: Wolfman on March 01, 2004, 09:43:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
The low blows come out!!!! You\'ll see when we are in power for another 4 years!!!! hehehehehehe...... :)
Wolfman spread still stands with Bush as a 26 vote favorite in the electoral college. I wonder if Vegas has odds on this.
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 02, 2004, 12:29:42 am
Post by: jocelyn on March 02, 2004, 12:55:22 am
Leith, don\'t you think civil unions are sort of a cop out? Granted, they\'re better than nothing, and if a compromise (which is purely rhetoric really) of wording is what\'s necessary than I say yes let\'s go with civil unions. However, I am tired of people who say they "don\'t care if someone is gay" saying they think civil unions are ok but marriage is not. I think the idea of marriage (not civil union) is really symbolic for a lot of people as the ultimate way to express one\'s love for another person. Legal benefits aside, these people should be able to have their marriage I think.
Post by: Todd on March 02, 2004, 01:13:03 am
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
(http://www.rnc.org/images/gallery/61.jpg)
a HOLE in a sea of asses
Post by: leith on March 02, 2004, 01:17:11 am
Post by: ChrisF on March 02, 2004, 02:34:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by leith
So much so that the University of Hawaii has changed their name from the Rainbow Warriors celebratring the colorful nature of the island tribes to just the warriors due to this. That is sad.
That sounds familiar. :)
Post by: Wolfman on March 02, 2004, 03:34:24 pm
Post by: jocelyn on March 03, 2004, 12:06:40 am
I don\'t think rainbows are a valid comparison to marriage really... Maybe marriage it\'s not a "right." Not many things are really. The government has way too many laws defining what our right are. However, I don\'t think it is the government\'s place to outlaw it either.... Fuck it, all I can say is, I KNOW deep down in my heart that two people who love each other and want to get married should be able to do so; it\'s absurd to deprive anyone of that if no one is being hurt in the process.... I guess that doesn\'t mean much, there is no real way for me to make this argument; to argue one needs logic. And the way I feel about this topic does not comes from intellect, making it easy to discuss logically... it comes purely from instinct and emotion... so I guess I shouldn\'t bother to say anything else about it. I digress. *sigh*
Post by: jocelyn on March 03, 2004, 12:09:50 am
Post by: leith on March 03, 2004, 12:23:54 am
Post by: leith on March 22, 2004, 01:57:09 pm
I thought some may want to check it out and see Rumsfeld for the liar he is.
His reaction is pretty funny actually
http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/ (http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/)
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 22, 2004, 02:02:01 pm
Post by: Todd on March 22, 2004, 05:28:50 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
I have my Bush/Cheney 2004 shirt now and I\'m going to wear it with pride!!!!
:rolleyes: :no: :sigh: :hand: :wave: :asskicked
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 22, 2004, 07:04:02 pm
Post by: jocelyn on March 23, 2004, 03:41:44 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
I have my Bush/Cheney 2004 shirt now and I\'m going to wear it with pride!!!!
I have my "I\'m a flaming lesbian who loves to eat hoo haa" shirt now and I\'m going to wear it with pride.
Post by: tiedyetoga on March 23, 2004, 05:56:45 pm
Post by: leith on March 23, 2004, 06:47:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
I have my "I\'m a flaming lesbian who loves to eat hoo haa" shirt now and I\'m going to wear it with pride.
HELL YEAH JOCELYN !!!!! YOU GO GIRL
Post by: Todd on March 23, 2004, 08:02:55 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
I have my "I\'m a flaming lesbian who loves to eat hoo haa" shirt now and I\'m going to wear it with pride.
LMFAO!!! Truly Awesome!!!
Post by: bluefunknebula on March 24, 2004, 09:34:47 am
Post by: jocelyn on March 24, 2004, 12:12:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
????
Don\'t worry about it Gray.
Great t-shirt!
Post by: leith on March 24, 2004, 10:26:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by bluefunknebula
i bet you\'ll vote this time hippy (http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/tshirt.php?sku=a291)
LMFAO OMG THAT IS SO CLASSIC .
It\'s funny \'cause it\'s true
Post by: bluefunknebula on March 25, 2004, 12:37:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by leith
It\'s funny \'cause it\'s true
so true! things will be different this time around...hopefully.
Post by: jocelyn on March 25, 2004, 12:11:04 pm
Post by: Mark on March 31, 2004, 03:46:06 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3570845.stm
Post by: Marcial on March 31, 2004, 04:35:26 pm
Post by: Mark on March 31, 2004, 05:24:13 pm
Let\'s see you refute everything here:
Bush Lies (http://www.bushlies.com)
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 06:58:23 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mark
You just don\'t get it do you? Are you going to tell me that you think it\'s OK to make fun of this?? This guy doesn\'t have one one ounce of class or empathy!
Let\'s see you refute everything here:
Bush Lies (http://www.bushlies.com)
Mark I hate to tell you this but a lot of the Bushies on this board have Blinders on and truthfully could care less what the Man does to destroy the world and bring this country down.
Sorry
Post by: jocelyn on March 31, 2004, 07:09:23 pm
*ding ding*
Round 358...
Post by: Marcial on March 31, 2004, 07:11:55 pm
All politicians are liers. They bend the truth & say things in a way that will appeal to the most people. They all do it. Now that Bush is in office, all the liberals are saying he did this... or he lied about that.... when a facist is in office, all of the conservatives will do the same thing. I will not even try to refute everything on that website... much of it is probably somewhat true... but if Al Gore would be in office now, I\'m sure there would be a similar website about him. Politics is politics... there will always be mudslinging & acusations from people who disagree with a politician\'s stance on any given issue.
Post by: jocelyn on March 31, 2004, 07:14:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
All politicians are liers. They bend the truth & say things in a way that will appeal to the most people. They all do it. Now that Bush is in office, all the liberals are saying he did this... or he lied about that.... when a facist is in office, all of the conservatives will do the same thing. I will not even try to refute everything on that website... much of it is probably somewhat true... but if Al Gore would be in office now, I\'m sure there would be a similar website about him. Politics is politics... there will always be mudslinging & acusations from people who disagree with a politician\'s stance on any given issue.
How you gonna dispute that Leith? ;)
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 07:15:33 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
All politicians are liers. They bend the truth & say things in a way that will appeal to the most people. They all do it. Now that Bush is in office, all the liberals are saying he did this... or he lied about that.... when a facist is in office, all of the conservatives will do the same thing. I will not even try to refute everything on that website... much of it is probably somewhat true... but if Al Gore would be in office now, I\'m sure there would be a similar website about him. Politics is politics... there will always be mudslinging & acusations from people who disagree with a politician\'s stance on any given issue.
Actually could not agree more w/ this statement. The thing is alot of the mudslinging does not affect whether people live or die. The fact that Bush sent our men and women to die under a false pretense just straight SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 07:16:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
How you gonna dispute that Leith? ;)
Whatever Joc see my above post I just do not type as fast as u
Post by: jocelyn on March 31, 2004, 07:18:16 pm
Post by: Marcial on March 31, 2004, 07:24:40 pm
marcialmendez@hotmail.com
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 07:29:23 pm
Post by: Marcial on March 31, 2004, 07:30:56 pm
Post by: jocelyn on March 31, 2004, 07:36:06 pm
I am an ind. as well, with a slight inclination towards libertarian, and, chosing the least offensive politician is also my strategy as well. It\'s about all one can do really. And Leith of course I agree with you about Bush; sometimes he makes me so angry I could hurt someone, sometimes he just makes me want to cry....
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 07:58:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
He started 2 wars? What\'s the other one besides Iraq?
Uhhh Afgahnistan ? Tally wacking Taliban. Remember? wow
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 08:02:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
I\'m sorry if it seemed like I was picking on you. *sigh* It was not intentional. I think everyone on this forum does a pretty good job of giving me a hard time though!
Well u cause a lot of trouble ;) Also the title under your name kinda helps us. Come On now you\'re no waste of bandwidth. R U ?
Post by: jocelyn on March 31, 2004, 08:05:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Come On now you\'re no waste of bandwidth. R U ?
Probably! That little detail\'s not going to stop me from posting though!
Post by: Marcial on March 31, 2004, 08:06:07 pm
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 08:22:57 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
Oh, so now you are saying that WE started the war with Afghanistan? I guess you must have forgotten about that whole September 11th thing, huh? Or is that just another one of those "excuses" to go bomb them too? They were providing a safe haven for the people who calculatingly murdered 3,000 of our innocent CIVILIANS. Fuck them and the goat they rode in on. We went EASY on them.
Oh so CARPET BOMBING AN ENTIRE COUNTRY FILLED W/ INNOCENT PEOPLE IS SO MUCH BETTER?
Come on now think a minute. if you knew anything about the history of the U.S\'s dirty dealings in the middle east you would know that we as a country have been begging for this for years. Terrorism has been a regular part of life in the middle east and since we want to meddle in their affairs, they just let us see what "regular life for them " is like. If you want to support the U.S. and it\'s blind support of Israel than accept the fact that you will have terror threat indicators the rest of your life. I know alot of people may disagree but facts is facts. We brought this on ourselves and all Americans should be upset w/ our Gov. for that no matter who happens to be in office!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 08:24:51 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
Probably! That little detail\'s not going to stop me from posting though!
LOL no probably not
Post by: Marcial on March 31, 2004, 09:30:49 pm
Post by: Drew_Kingsley on March 31, 2004, 09:44:56 pm
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 10:21:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
Ah, I see, a political choice on our part, gives them the right to intentionally kill our civilians. Is that what they teach you out on the west coast? LOL! Come on dude, get serious. At least our government does not purposely kill innocent people.... they may kill them unintentionally if they get in the way, but we do not target civilians.
Oh ok so innocent people going about their lives is getting in the way. These people should not have to die \'cause their gov. picked on the wrong country. Just because we are Americans does not mean we are innocents and always right. The WTC had people from all sorts of countries, the attacks were not just against us and yet alot of those countries did not want to obliterate Afghanistan. Well there is a reason this is called The ONE and ONLY PBFans Political Pissing Contest Thread ;)
Post by: Marcial on March 31, 2004, 10:57:49 pm
Post by: leith on March 31, 2004, 11:04:34 pm
So someday we will be able to share a cold one when I decide to just throw it all away and travel w/ the guys in hopes I bug \'em enough to force them to let me be their lighting guy. :)
Post by: jocelyn on April 01, 2004, 11:25:45 am
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Oh ok so innocent people going about their lives is getting in the way. These people should not have to die \'cause their gov. picked on the wrong country. Just because we are Americans does not mean we are innocents and always right. The WTC had people from all sorts of countries, the attacks were not just against us and yet alot of those countries did not want to obliterate Afghanistan. Well there is a reason this is called The ONE and ONLY PBFans Political Pissing Contest Thread ;)
Keep in mind that most of the "not so innocent Americans" who dies in the WTC had no hand in the policies of the US govt. in the Middle East. Most of the people in the WTC were just going about their business not harming a soul, and certainly not trying to screw the middle east out of oil, or blindly support Israel, or any such shenanigans. It is not fair to these people to rationalize their deaths with our government\'s poor choices. What if it had been a stadium packed full of deadheads instead? Would you still think that these people had asked for it, because their government had done something shady in the past?
Post by: leith on April 01, 2004, 02:03:12 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
Keep in mind that most of the "not so innocent Americans" who dies in the WTC had no hand in the policies of the US govt. in the Middle East. Most of the people in the WTC were just going about their business not harming a soul, and certainly not trying to screw the middle east out of oil, or blindly support Israel, or any such shenanigans. It is not fair to these people to rationalize their deaths with our government\'s poor choices. What if it had been a stadium packed full of deadheads instead? Would you still think that these people had asked for it, because their government had done something shady in the past?
The point is Jocelyn that there are innocents in every war. The fact that our Gov. is arrogant enough to think that it\'s policies will not come back to hurt the Country is deadly. Your analogy of a stadium of Deadheads is ludicrous and I expected better from u. The WTC was a legitimate target for Al-Queda to attack. It is a symbol of capitalism and anyone who worked there in the eyes of Al-Queda was a target. Not that I agree but I can see the logic. If we were not across an ocean believe me, America would have gone through this a looooooong time ago. As far as rationalizing deaths, I can never rationalize another human\'s death by the hand of another human I can only attempt to comprehend the evil involved.
Post by: jocelyn on April 01, 2004, 02:23:47 pm
Post by: leith on April 01, 2004, 02:36:11 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
I know it was a ridiculous comparison, which was my point. I was just trying to make sure you didn\'t think the lives lost in the WTC were of any less value than those lost in Iraq and Afghanistan, simply because they\'re Americans under a grotesquely arrogant government. I understand the logic of targeting the twin towers, obviously, I am just trying to point out that although it is a symbol of capitalism, the people inside this symbol had no direct responsibility for the sufferings of the Middle Eastern people.
NO HUMAN LIFE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED LESS VALUABLE THAN ANOTHER\'S UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I am anti-death penalty and also very pro- choice. Life is the one thing that God (whichever one you may or may not believe in ) GAVE ALL OF US. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE THAT AWAY NO MATTER WHAT!
I am a patriot to the core but will never trust my government even if run by a bunch of Deadheads!!!!!!!!
Got it Jocelyn?
Post by: jocelyn on April 01, 2004, 02:44:35 pm
And thus marks my last post ever in this thread!
Post by: antbach on April 01, 2004, 03:06:03 pm
2. I hate Bush, not gonna give reasons cos I dont feel like checking this thread every day to read the same stuff
3. We made our point in Iraq, captured Saddam, why not bring them home?
4. This war on Iraq will be in my kids\' history books as a comparison to Vietnam
5. I do believe it is our own fault the WTC center got attacked, we can\'t seem to mind our own business, but I guess that\'s what we\'re supposed to do being the world power and all
6. why not be like Canada? ya don\'t see them getting into other people\'s shit (funny story, while at IT the kids next to us were from canada, drunken Ant asked if they even had a military, they came up with a good kick-in- the-face answer to make me feel silly, "yea, and to top we just got ourselves cable television")
7. Have fun with the thread guys, Im all done ;)
Post by: leith on April 01, 2004, 03:51:51 pm
Oh and Antbach if you don\'t vote you don\'t have a voice. come on the U.S. deserves to hear you.
Post by: jocelyn on April 01, 2004, 04:18:23 pm
However, after all this my policy from now on with this thread will remain as such: :out:
Post by: Todd on April 01, 2004, 06:07:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by antbach
(funny story, while at IT the kids next to us were from canada, drunken Ant asked if they even had a military, they came up with a good kick-in- the-face answer to make me feel silly, "yea, and to top we just got ourselves cable television")
LMFAO!!! That is perfect!
Post by: leith on April 06, 2004, 07:08:32 pm
Post by: Marcial on April 06, 2004, 07:49:00 pm
Loosing troops sucks. I feel sad for the people and families who get caught in the middle of a war. But when you\'re the president, you don\'t think in terms of the individual lives lost, but rather in the overall picture of what is best for the country (and the world) as a whole. 600 seems like alot, but have you ever seen the stats for other wars?
Post by: ChrisF on April 06, 2004, 08:19:09 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
600 seems like alot, but have you ever seen the stats for other wars?
Here is one thing that i do not understand. pro war people think it was very important to liberate iraq whether they ever find any wmds or not. If they care do much about the iraqi people why do they act like the only deaths that matter are americans? the death count for this war is not 600, its about 10,000.
Post by: leith on April 06, 2004, 08:36:00 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ChrisF
Here is one thing that i do not understand. pro war people think it was very important to liberate iraq whether they ever find any wmds or not. If they care do much about the iraqi people why do they act like the only deaths that matter are americans? the death count for this war is not 600, its about 10,000.
Thank You
Post by: leith on April 06, 2004, 08:40:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
at this point, that is a no can do.... politicly speaking, of course. So many countries already see us as the big bully for going over there... if we pull out now, and leave the place a fucking wreck, we would look even worse. Also, I think we have a sincere interest in really giving the people of Iraq what we promised them... a better government, and a better life in general. If we leave while whacked-out militants are all over the place, what do you think is going to happen? The whole place is going to go to shit... again...
I understand your point but how big does the hole have to get before we cannot get out?
It just seems like I am living my parent\'s war(Vietnam) and now fully realize what my mom has been teaching me all these years is really true and not just left wing rhetoric.
Post by: Marcial on April 06, 2004, 09:30:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ChrisF
why do they act like the only deaths that matter are americans? the death count for this war is not 600, its about 10,000.
I don\'t think anyone is "pro war." I\'m not. I wish these issues could be settled with a discussion over tea & crumpets. Unfortunately, that is not possible. The whole purpose behind this war is to rid that country of it\'s "evil" element. So yes, we are going to kill people. And as far as I\'m concerned, these militants who routinely target innocent people on purpose, deserve to die. Period. So no, their deaths do not count as a negative in my opinion... as unpopular as it may be around here.
Post by: ChrisF on April 06, 2004, 10:23:55 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
I don\'t think anyone is "pro war." I\'m not. I wish these issues could be settled with a discussion over tea & crumpets. Unfortunately, that is not possible. The whole purpose behind this war is to rid that country of it\'s "evil" element. So yes, we are going to kill people. And as far as I\'m concerned, these militants who routinely target innocent people on purpose, deserve to die. Period. So no, their deaths do not count as a negative in my opinion... as unpopular as it may be around here.
you are not pro war, but you think certain groups of people should be killed by our military? that makes no sense.
Post by: Marcial on April 06, 2004, 11:02:18 pm
Post by: leith on April 06, 2004, 11:19:03 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
am i happy there is a war? no. in this case it is a necessity for our collective safety.
Who\'s collective safety? Come On now even w/ the Terror Alerts u do not feel just as safe as before 9/11 ? if not u really never paid attention in the first place. We are so safe that the general public was surprised that someone had the balls to "bring it" to our home shores.
What happened to all the attacks that the Bush administration said were coming. You hear every couple of weeks that they "found some more evidence of attacks" and diverted them. now some may be true but come on if u believe these are not just propaganda I am sorry.
Remember how large our Country is. Some parts of our country have not even bothered with this as it does not and probably will not affect them. Sad as that is it\'s true.
We are as safe as we were before 9/11 it\'s just now we have forced the government to respond in a more timely manner to gathered intellegence. Bush has used the media brilliantly to force his own type of terror down the general public\'s throat and has removed many safeguards to our civil liberties in the name of protecting us. Total B.S.
Post by: oldnewbie on April 06, 2004, 11:26:57 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Bush has used the media brilliantly to force his own type of terror down the general public\'s throat and has removed many safeguards to our civil liberties in the name of protecting us. Total B.S.
amen brother
Post by: oldnewbie on April 06, 2004, 11:29:15 pm
Post by: leith on April 06, 2004, 11:34:12 pm
Quote
Originally posted by oldnewbie
it\'s ok though cause uncle dubya knows whats best for YOU......even if you don\'t...
Are u becoming a slogan writer? lol
Post by: leith on April 09, 2004, 02:20:54 am
Wow and people actually feel safer w/ this guy? Hopefully people are watching and coming to realize that Bush is a liar and incompetent.
Post by: Marcial on April 09, 2004, 12:33:28 pm
BTW, now it is a priority & you are bitching about us doing something about it. Make up your mind & stop badmouthing the president just because he\'s facist.
Post by: leith on April 09, 2004, 01:15:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
I didn\'t get that feeling at all. Not one bit. What I heard was that there needs to be better interdepartment communication.... that we had all of the pieces of the puzzle, but all in different places & no one was sharing. Maybe you are talking about a different Condoleeza Rice??
BTW, now it is a priority & you are bitching about us doing something about it. Make up your mind & stop badmouthing the president just because he\'s facist.
Who is in charge? The President. Who is responsible to make sure his people are communicating? The President. Don\'t try and pass the buck. When someone brings the President\'s Daily Briefing to him TITLED: OSAMA DETERMINED TO ATTACK THE U.S., He should have paid more fuckin\' attention. Come On Now!
BTW, I badmouth Bush because he is a liar, incompetent, and he will not shoulder any of the responsibility for this, he just blames it on everyone else. I would badmouth him if he was independent , facist,green whatever. He freakin\' Blows!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: Marcial on April 09, 2004, 02:41:56 pm
Post by: leith on April 09, 2004, 02:49:45 pm
You can not escape the fact that this guy is an incompetent fool tryin\' to cover his ineptness by blaming others.
As for all dems being pussies, I believe John Kerry is a Vietnam Veteran who actually fought for his Country instead of hiding like the little fuckin\' hoo haa rat Bush was!!!!!
Post by: Wolfman on April 10, 2004, 11:00:59 am
Bush has to be loving this!
Post by: Wolfman on April 10, 2004, 11:05:05 am
Post by: oldnewbie on April 12, 2004, 10:10:41 pm
www.bushorchimp.com (http://www.bushorchimp.com)
Post by: Mark on April 13, 2004, 09:18:23 am
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
I\'m sure that the Clinton administration heard lots about Osama B in the previous 8 years that they were in power... why didn\'t they do anything? I\'ll tell you why, cause like all facists, they were a bunch of PUSSIES!!!!!! Probably worried about taking out a few innocent Afghani\'s in the process of getting to him, so instead they let them take 3000 of our innocents.
Marcial-you really need to do some research. Clinton wanted him dead. We had him right in the crosshairs, and the CIA stopped it for fear of the safety of their agents.
Post by: tiedyetoga on April 13, 2004, 09:27:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by Mark
Marcial-you really need to do some research. Clinton wanted him dead. We had him right in the crosshairs, and the CIA stopped it for fear of the safety of their agents.
8 years to take him out. Never did a thing, besides a few crusiemissles..... 9/11 in all honesty prob could never have been stopped. All this nonsense now is politics.
Oh and on a side note, I\'ll be attending the facist National Convention this summer. :)
Post by: davepeck on April 13, 2004, 11:20:28 am
Quote
Obviously, President Bush is not a fan of American Idol, or else he never would have allowed his press conference to conflict with the show. Doesn’t he know that more people are interested in voting for the next American Idol than the next president? This will not help him gain votes in the coming election.
:lol:
http://www.realitynewsonline.com/cgi-bin/ae.pl?mode=1&article=article4370.art&page=1
Post by: jocelyn on April 13, 2004, 11:38:35 am
Post by: Mark on April 13, 2004, 01:20:50 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
8 years to take him out. Never did a thing, besides a few crusiemissles.....
Like I said, you need to do some research before making biased, false statements. For Bush, it\'s 3.5 years and counting
Post by: Drew_Kingsley on April 13, 2004, 02:09:52 pm
1. Nobody is going to change anybody else\'s mind about politics
2. Any fact can be spun to mean anything
3. 9/11 was going to happen; the fact that Bush was President at the time is coincidence
4. The media is bias, generally toward facists: HOWEVER Bill O\'Reilly is a blatant conservative, not "Fair and Balanced"
6. What happened to 5?
7. Too many Americans dislike George W. Bush "because he is stupid" based solely upon what they see on Saturday Night Live and The Daily Show
8. There are too many Americans who vote based on party affiliation exclusively
As it may be evident, I tend to agree with George W. Bush more often than not. But I\'m honestly not at the point of wanting to vote. I feel that if I don\'t vote, I\'m giving more power to those who feel strongly enough to vote. Democracy lives!
Post by: tiedyetoga on April 13, 2004, 02:18:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Mark
Like I said, you need to do some research before making biased, false statements. For Bush, it\'s 3.5 years and counting
Did Clinton start the ar on Terror?
no.
Post by: tiedyetoga on April 13, 2004, 02:19:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Drew_Kingsley
I\'m not complaining about this thread, because I see it as healthy conversation (for the most part), but here is my take on American politics. Keep in mind, these are opinions, and very basic ones at that.
1. Nobody is going to change anybody else\'s mind about politics
2. Any fact can be spun to mean anything
3. 9/11 was going to happen; the fact that Bush was President at the time is coincidence
4. The media is bias, generally toward facists: HOWEVER Bill O\'Reilly is a blatant conservative, not "Fair and Balanced"
6. What happened to 5?
7. Too many Americans dislike George W. Bush "because he is stupid" based solely upon what they see on Saturday Night Live and The Daily Show
8. There are too many Americans who vote based on party affiliation exclusively
As it may be evident, I tend to agree with George W. Bush more often than not. But I\'m honestly not at the point of wanting to vote. I feel that if I don\'t vote, I\'m giving more power to those who feel strongly enough to vote. Democracy lives!
Drew, you should come to the convention with me.
Post by: leith on April 13, 2004, 02:49:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Drew_Kingsley
I\'m not complaining about this thread, because I see it as healthy conversation (for the most part), but here is my take on American politics. Keep in mind, these are opinions, and very basic ones at that.
1. Nobody is going to change anybody else\'s mind about politics
2. Any fact can be spun to mean anything
3. 9/11 was going to happen; the fact that Bush was President at the time is coincidence
4. The media is bias, generally toward facists: HOWEVER Bill O\'Reilly is a blatant conservative, not "Fair and Balanced"
6. What happened to 5?
7. Too many Americans dislike George W. Bush "because he is stupid" based solely upon what they see on Saturday Night Live and The Daily Show
8. There are too many Americans who vote based on party affiliation exclusively
As it may be evident, I tend to agree with George W. Bush more often than not. But I\'m honestly not at the point of wanting to vote. I feel that if I don\'t vote, I\'m giving more power to those who feel strongly enough to vote. Democracy lives!
1. True
2. If done right
3. Also true
4. media biased towards liberals but censored by conservatives Hmmm
6. LOL
7. Not true Not enough Americans get The Daily Show as CC is not carried on all cable and look @ SNL\'s ratings no one watches.
8. Too True
As for you not voting that is a piss poor excuse but a nice try anyway. Now go register! Go on!
Post by: Mark on April 13, 2004, 04:01:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by tiedyetoga
Did Clinton start the ar on Terror?
no.
Neither did Bush, until 9/11 smacked us in the face. Of course he declared a war on terror, then invaded Iraq, two completely different things.
Post by: leith on April 15, 2004, 01:58:58 am
Post by: oldnewbie on April 15, 2004, 08:45:43 am
Post by: realisthis on April 15, 2004, 12:19:16 pm
Post by: freddiewaht on April 15, 2004, 12:23:41 pm
Post by: Mark on April 16, 2004, 09:58:15 am
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20040416/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_woodward_book_3 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20040416/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_woodward_book_3)
Post by: FrankZappa on April 16, 2004, 11:02:34 am
American presidents have knowingly let things happen (be it within their control or not) to force the country into war. When something happens directly against the country, it alows the nation to turn into a mob and demand restitution like a city in the old west when they catch the bandit. Getting congress to sign a declaration is now easier than stealing an ellection. Here are the two most famous cases.
WW1: The Zimmerman Note was intercepted and published nation-wide in newspapers. While this was not an actuall attack, it was blatenly spelled out plans for one and swayed the country. read it here (http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1917/zimmerman.html).
WW2: Truman knew that america was going to come under attack by Japan in 1941. This was evident since the entire Japanese fleet was missing, and we had been getting co-op information that they we\'re planning "Something in the Pacific against america". Did we know where? Yes, but not untill right before it happen due to miss-communication and mistaken ID of air planes and ships off the coast of california. Could they have known it was pearl harbor? possibly, but most likely improbable.
war on terror: We knew at least as far back as the clinton administration that something was being planned. There are numerous debates that Bush knew they were going to attack. Like pearl harbor, they didnt know the where and when untill right before, but they could have done more.
I know its always easy to look back and say "Why didnt you do this", but there are still lots more that could have been done pre-9/11.
discuss...
Post by: Mark on April 16, 2004, 11:24:21 am
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/
Post by: FrankZappa on April 17, 2004, 07:21:38 am
(http://www.seanparnell.com/George%20W.%20Bush/PresidencyForDummies.jpg)
(http://perso.wanadoo.fr/mike.werner/BlogPics/Bush%20Jr.jpg)
(http://www.philelmore.com/images/bod-cheney.jpg)
Post by: FrankZappa on April 17, 2004, 07:52:44 am
Post by: oldnewbie on April 20, 2004, 01:17:24 am
this could solve everything......i know everyone here will want to do his or her part :duck:
Post by: leith on April 20, 2004, 01:20:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by oldnewbie
www.masturbateforpeace.com (http://www.masturbateforpeace.com)
this could solve everything......i know everyone here will want to do his or her part :duck:
What the hell? How did u come across this website? hmmmmmmmm?
Post by: oldnewbie on April 20, 2004, 01:26:20 am
Quote
Originally posted by leith
What the hell? How did u come across this website? hmmmmmmmm?
that almost sound like an accusation :emb:
actually on the moe. pt site someone put it up....thought we could have some fun with it :gulp:
Post by: davepeck on June 03, 2004, 03:01:17 pm
http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com/
:lol:
Post by: leith on June 03, 2004, 09:13:01 pm
Post by: davepeck on July 15, 2004, 06:46:46 am
Kerry/Edwards will be on imus this morning at 7:45 EST. 660am WFAN (and all other imus affiliates) and MSNBC...
Post by: jocelyn on July 15, 2004, 12:06:55 pm
Post by: davepeck on July 15, 2004, 12:31:59 pm
![]("http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040707/capt.ohab10407072316.kerry_edwards_ohab104.jpg")
![]("http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040708/capt.flco10407080408.kerry_flco104.jpg")
![]("http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040708/i/r1663396116.jpg")
![]("http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040707/i/r3345862088.jpg")
![]("http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040707/capt.pagh10107071723.kerry_pagh101.jpg")
![]("http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040707/capt.ohab10107072242.kerry_edwards_ohab101.jpg")
![]("http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040707/capt.sge.lhh88.070704213631.photo01.default-278x382.jpg")
![]("http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20040707/i/r328358099.jpg")
![]("http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040706/capt.sge.kur38.060704115333.photo00.default-336x384.jpg")
Post by: oldnewbie on August 18, 2004, 12:01:54 am
Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.
All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.
Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.
Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should loose his home because of his temporary misfortune.
Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.
Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.
Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dad\'s; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural facist’s would still be sitting in the dark)
He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.
He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved facists have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”.
By John Gray Cincinnati, Ohio
Post by: jocelyn on August 18, 2004, 12:12:03 pm
;)
Post by: jocelyn on August 18, 2004, 12:13:41 pm
Post by: Marcial on August 18, 2004, 01:32:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
Joe gets home from his long day at work, and realizes he hasn\'t made much money at all because some liberal decided to give huge amounts of welfare to someone who isn\'t working at all, driving Joe\'s taxes through the roof....
;)
Couldn\'t have said it better myself.
Post by: Marcial on August 18, 2004, 01:33:42 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
And on his way to work the next morning, Joe gets a ticket for not wearing his seatbelt because some liberal decided it was a good idea to pass a law to protect one from one\'s own stupidity. Liberals are good at passing laws like that.
Exactly. And with the passing of that law, guess who\'s paying for the additional police monitoring, and ticket writing? Yep, you guessed it... me & you. facists love to tell you what they think is best for you.
Post by: leith on August 18, 2004, 03:25:24 pm
Post by: oldnewbie on August 18, 2004, 05:58:10 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
Joe gets home from his long day at work, and realizes he hasn\'t made much money at all because some liberal decided to give huge amounts of welfare to someone who isn\'t working at all, driving Joe\'s taxes through the roof....
;)
with a good job and excellent pay? now your making joe into somebody else....and i thought this wouldn\'t be any fun without gray.
Post by: oldnewbie on August 18, 2004, 05:59:45 pm
Post by: jocelyn on August 18, 2004, 10:10:33 pm
I am actually pretty darn liberal, at least as far as social matters go. (Fiscally, I can\'t help but lean towards being a bit conservative...) I just wanted to spice things up a bit. I think that article was pretty silly; one could just as easily write a similar article pointing out all of the things facists have done for us. Despite being relatively liberal, I must say that I dislike the current facistic party. It has gone too far left in my opinion. So, I guess I\'m just somewhere in limbo.
The main thing I dislike about that article is it is the perfect example of what frustrates me so much about the current political climate: it\'s more polarized than ever. Left attacking right, right attacking left. Articles like the one above are totally counterproductive. I think it\'s about time for politicans, political analysts, people in general to try to be a bit less partisan. ugh.
Post by: oldnewbie on August 18, 2004, 11:46:54 pm
Post by: leith on August 19, 2004, 02:15:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by oldnewbie
i do agree with the fucking seat belt thing though
Seat Belts save lives It is Fact. You get in a car w/ me driving we do not GO ANYWHERE until all seatbelts are fastened. I have lost 2 friends in accidents in which their lives could have been saved by taking an xtra 3 seconds to put a seatbelt on. When the law was enacted I was a firm disbeliever in it. I have learned better.
Post by: leith on August 19, 2004, 02:31:13 am
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
he he did you think I wasn\'t going to say anything? :)
I am actually pretty darn liberal, at least as far as social matters go. (Fiscally, I can\'t help but lean towards being a bit conservative...) I just wanted to spice things up a bit. I think that article was pretty silly; one could just as easily write a similar article pointing out all of the things facists have done for us. Despite being relatively liberal, I must say that I dislike the current facistic party. It has gone too far left in my opinion. So, I guess I\'m just somewhere in limbo.
The main thing I dislike about that article is it is the perfect example of what frustrates me so much about the current political climate: it\'s more polarized than ever. Left attacking right, right attacking left. Articles like the one above are totally counterproductive. I think it\'s about time for politicans, political analysts, people in general to try to be a bit less partisan. ugh.
You can thank the appointed President (not elected but appointed by the U.S. Supreme Court) for polarizing this country. As far as being a fiscal conservative the only people who are fiscally conservative are those that have money to conserve. This leaves about 70% of the country who even if they wanted to be fiscally conservative could not. Also remember that "trickle down" was a fiscally conservative idea which obvoiusly did not work. As far as being too far left what is your barometer ? I find the conservative rightwing almost fascist compared to where most liberal left wingers are.
It comes down to this: Do you care that all you have can be taken from you w/o you doing anything morally or even legally wrong? Do you want to be a citizen of a country that wants the best for the world or what\'s best for only the U.S. ? Plain and Simple our Civil Liberties are @ risk along with our National Credibility with Bush in charge.
Post by: davepeck on August 19, 2004, 08:21:46 am
Post by: jocelyn on August 19, 2004, 01:53:36 pm
No, I will not be voting for Bush. Never, ever, ever. I am, unfortunately, an ABB voter. Anyone But Bush. Kerry in this case is the lesser evil. Even if he does flip flop all over the damn place which seriously has damaged his credibility in my eyes.
Yes, seat belts save lives. I too, like probably most of the people on here, know someone who died in a car accident and would probably still be here today if he had been wearing a seatbelt. However, education, not the creation of excessive laws, is what is necessary imo. Mamograms save lives. Wearing helmets in a car would probably save lives. Not eating junk food saves lives. Exercising saves lives. We do not need laws to save us from our own moronic and unhealthy decisions.
I agree Leith that Bush has caused a lot of polarization in this country. He has caused division not only within this country but also in our relations which the rest of the world. He\'s a moron. I never said it was the liberals who have ben solely responsible for the partisan politics which dominate EVERYTHING. BOTH sides are to blame, and if you refuse to see that, then you are one of the people that will prevent progress.
"As far as being a fiscal conservative the only people who are fiscally conservative are those that have money to conserve."
Not true. I could be dead broke but still have a distaste for huge government spending.
"I find the conservative rightwing almost fascist compared to where most liberal left wingers are."
Perhaps. I don\'t know what your point is though. I am an independent, not a facist. I am not far right, I don\'t like the far right, I have never liked the far right; I find them frightening. I find the far ANYTHING frightneing, be it left or right wing. Radicalism is not good for any country made up of real people, particularly a country with as much diversity as this one. Middle of the road politics is necessary. I just get frustrated when people act like either side is perfect. Anyone who could believe that is not paying attention and is not thinking for themselves. I\'d rather not be brainwashed by EITHER party.
" It comes down to this: Do you care that all you have can be taken from you w/o you doing anything morally or even legally wrong? Do you want to be a citizen of a country that wants the best for the world or what\'s best for only the U.S. ? Plain and Simple our Civil Liberties are @ risk along with our National Credibility with Bush in charge."
I don\'t think my comments "come down to" that at all. I don\'t see how that has anything to do with what I said. My dislike of partisan politics is in no way indicative of my supporting G Dubya. I agree with what you are saying entirely (The Patriot Act is a nightmare), but I don\'t think civil liberties are really related to what I was talking about.
Post by: jocelyn on August 19, 2004, 02:13:05 pm
Post by: Gfunk on August 19, 2004, 04:49:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
And on his way to work the next morning, Joe gets a ticket for not wearing his seatbelt because some liberal decided it was a good idea to pass a law to protect one from one\'s own stupidity. Liberals are good at passing laws like that.
actually, Joe takes the subway to work ;)
Post by: oldnewbie on August 19, 2004, 05:10:39 pm
Post by: Marcial on August 19, 2004, 10:45:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
I am actually pretty darn liberal, at least as far as social matters go. (Fiscally, I can\'t help but lean towards being a bit conservative...)
I am the same way....
abortion = pro-choice
drugs = legalize them all
gay marriage = more power to them
so long as it doen\'t hurt me, I like to stay out of other\'s buisness, let them run their own lives and let them choose what they feel is best for them. Other than capital punishment, I pretty much agree with every facistic social view.
BUT, nothing angers me more than seeing the 30% + that gets jacked from my paycheck every week.... and I tend to vote for my wallet at the expense of my social beliefs.
Post by: leith on August 19, 2004, 11:17:05 pm
Now my problem w/ taxes are how they are portioned out but that is another issue entirely.
Post by: oldnewbie on August 19, 2004, 11:47:02 pm
Post by: leith on August 20, 2004, 12:52:51 am
Post by: oldnewbie on August 20, 2004, 12:54:59 am
Post by: leith on August 20, 2004, 12:58:48 am
Post by: oldnewbie on August 20, 2004, 01:09:38 am
Post by: davepeck on August 20, 2004, 10:19:57 am
Post by: jocelyn on August 20, 2004, 02:15:03 pm
"Now my problem w/ taxes are how they are portioned out"
ditto
"Oh yeah someone has got to pay for Duane sitting on his ASS posting while waiting to put out that fire."
Ahh perfect shot...
(well, one of my problems with taxes ;) )
Post by: jocelyn on August 20, 2004, 02:53:17 pm
Post by: oldnewbie on August 20, 2004, 04:37:33 pm
Post by: leith on August 20, 2004, 05:29:11 pm
Post by: oldnewbie on August 20, 2004, 06:45:47 pm
Quote
Originally posted by leith
Now I saw plenty of normal Joes and Jills NOT running away and attempting to help those that had fallen or to help the civil servants there on scene. These people had no obligaton to help yet did. I applaud those that did their job and did it well but they would have had an even tougher time w/o those few that truly showed altruism.
agreed!
Post by: oldnewbie on August 20, 2004, 07:15:07 pm
Post by: oldnewbie on August 20, 2004, 07:38:54 pm
Clinton TRIPLED the counterterrorism budget for the FBI, and doubled
counterterrorism funding overall.
He captured, tried and convicted Ramzi Yousef, Abdul Hakim Murad, and
Wali Khan Amin Shah, the persons behind the first WTC bombing, who were
also planning to kill the Pope and blow up 12 US jetliners
simultaneously. They also planned attacks on the UN Headquarters, the
FBI building, the Israeli embassy in Washington, the LA and Boston
airports, the Holland and Lincoln tunnels, and the George Washington
bridge, which were all thwarted by the Clinton Administration.
The Clinton Administration also rolled up Al-Qaeda cells in over 20
countries. And they created a top-level national security post to
coordinate all federal counter-terrorism activity.
Barton Gellman of the Washington Post reported, "By any measure
available, Clinton left office having given greater priority to
terrorism than any president before him." And Clinton\'s was "the first
administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort."
Congressional facists fought EVERY effort by the Clinton
administration to increase anti-terrorism funding.
In 1998, the Clinton Administration Tomahawked targets in Sudan and
Afghanistan in retaliation for terrorist strikes against our embassies
in Kenya and Tanzania. Clinton himself issued a presidential directive
authorizing the assassination of Osama bin Laden after said embassy
attacks.
After the bombing of the USS Cole, Clinton put Richard Clarke in charge
of creating a comprehensive plan to take out Al-Qaeda, but the plan was
not put in place by the Bush Administration until after 9/11.
The only reason Clinton did not act out on his Al-Qaeda elimination plan
was because he did not want to hand the Bush Administration a war when
they took office. Instead, the plan was handed over to the Bush
Administration, which they IGNORED. Clarke was fuming during those
first months of the Bush Administration because no one would listen to
him. The Bush Administration also refused to implement to
recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, issued on 2-15-01.
i agree with many of you on many of these issues. bush just scares the hell out of me.
Post by: Marcial on August 20, 2004, 07:58:46 pm
The shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving. CBS, NBC, and ABC show up and show pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to film of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can it be, in a country of such wealth that this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so? Then a representative of the NAAGB (The National Association of Green Bugs) shows up on Night Line and charges the ant with "Green Bias" and makes the case that the grasshopper is the victim of 30 million years of greenism. Kermit the frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when he sings "It\'s Not Easy Being Green."
Bill and Hillary Clinton make a special guest appearance on the CBS evening news and tell a concerned Dan Rather That they will do everything they can for the grasshopper who has been denied the prosperity he deserves by those who benefited unfairly during the summer, or as Bill refers to it, the "Temperatures Of The 80\'s".
Finally the EEOC drafts the "Economic Equity and Anti-Greenism Act" RECTRO-ACTIVE to the beginning of the summer. The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and having nothing left to pay his Retro-Active taxes, his home is confiscated by the government.
The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ant\'s food while the government house he\'s in....which just happens to be the ant\'s old house.... crumbles around him since he doesn\'t know how to maintain it. The ant has disappeared in the snow. And on the TV; which the grasshopper bought by selling most of the ant\'s food, Bill Clinton is standing before a wildly applauding group of facists announcing that a new era of "Fairness" has dawned in America.
Post by: leith on August 20, 2004, 08:19:11 pm
Post by: oldnewbie on August 20, 2004, 09:45:52 pm
Post by: leith on August 21, 2004, 02:57:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by oldnewbie
just for the record....i just spent the last couple of hours busting instead of sitting on my ass
:thumbsup:
Post by: Marcial on August 21, 2004, 12:17:26 pm
Post by: leith on August 21, 2004, 12:35:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Marcial
I wasn\'t trying to imply that all facists are non-working, lazy grasshoppers. But I guarantee that not one non-working, welfare abuser is a facist! A few bad apples spoil it for your entire party!
Guarantee that? I doubt it. You forget that facists/facists are first humans and I guarantee that there IS a non-working, welfare abusing facist out there. You forget that there are some people who vote facist because they were taught to. Not everyone that votes is educated. That is to say there is no test you have to take to vote, you just gotta sign up. This country is made up of many non educated, non informed voters who have a family tradition of voting facist even as this act takes food from their table.
This is Bush\'s main hope that the majority of Middle America stays as ignorant as it has proven to be in the past and he grabs the traditional gop states. Otherwise he\'s fucked!
Post by: oldnewbie on August 21, 2004, 12:56:27 pm
Post by: jocelyn on August 21, 2004, 06:03:51 pm
Quote
Originally posted by oldnewbie
when people speak in absolutes with guarantees, THAT scares me.
Right-o Duane, that is precisely what I was trying to say in one of my earlier posts. Anyone who can\'t see flaws on both sides is either brainwashed or stupid.
Post by: oldnewbie on August 21, 2004, 07:25:27 pm
Post by: davepeck on August 22, 2004, 08:58:21 am
Post by: oldnewbie on August 23, 2004, 10:33:36 pm
BUSH\'S BORN AGAIN DRUG WAR
by Paul Armentano, AlterNet, (Source:AlterNet)
12 Aug 2004
United States
-------
Whereas previous administrations commonly framed their anti-drug arguments in secular terms, Bush\'s drug war, at least rhetorically, resembles that of a religious crusade.
Listen to George Walker Bush speak about substance abuse and it\'s apparent that one is listening to a preacher, not a president. "There are faith-based organizations in drug treatment that work so well because they convince a person to turn their life over to Christ," Bush divulged to the religious journal Christianity Today. "By doing so, they change a person\'s heart [and] a person with a changed heart is less likely to be addicted to drugs and alcohol."
Despite US Constitutional restrictions requiring a separation of church and state, Bush\'s ardent Judeo-Christian faith - the President is a practicing Methodist who "accepted Jesus Christ into [his] life" in 1986 - remains the staple of his administration\'s anti-drug platform. Whereas previous administrations commonly framed their anti-drug arguments in secular terms ( i.e., former President Richard Nixon\'s "War on Drugs" or the Reagan administration\'s "Just Say No" campaign ), Bush\'s drug war, at least rhetorically, resembles that of a religious crusade. GW\'s bottom line: Only through "God\'s will" may one be "saved" from the temptations of illegal drugs. It\'s a stance that many drug law reformers view as not only ineffective, but possibly illegal.
President Or Proselytizer?
"You know, I had a drinking problem. Right now I should be in a bar in Texas, not the Oval Office," Bush told author David Frum in his 2003 biography The Right Man. "There is only one reason that I am in the Oval Office and not in a bar. I found faith. I found God. I am here because of the powers of prayer."
While stories recounting the President\'s prior alcohol and drug use - so-called "youthful indiscretions" - are well publicized, not as well known is his 1986 spiritual awakening that led him to quit his use of intoxicants cold turkey. It\'s this personal journey that led Bush to reach his conclusion that other drug users - recreational pot smokers in particular - must also undergo their own, albeit coerced, religious conversion to achieve drug abstinence. After four years in office, it\'s clear that Bush is willing to use the bully pulpit and Congress\' deep pockets to accomplish his goal: a drug-free, religiously indoctrinated America.
As President, one of Bush\'s first actions was to sign an executive order establishing a White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, presently headed by "Faith Czar" Jim Towey. In 2002, the Bush administration awarded nearly 500 faith-based programs - including several drug "education" and treatment programs - $477 million in taxpayers\' funding. In 2002, Bush doled out an additional $568 million in federal funds to 680 self-identified faith-based groups - programs like the fundamentalist Christian drug-treatment project "Set Free Indeed," which states: "We rely solely on the foundation of the Word of God to break the bands of addiction. Once a person ... recognizes that only God can set them free, the rebuilding process can begin." To date, the Bush administration has funneled several million dollars to "Set Free Indeed," and the President singled out its founder by name during his 2003 State of the Union address, lauding it as a shining example of federally-backed faith-based drug treatment.
Religion has also been the theme of several new, high profile anti-drug campaigns launched by the administration. In 2003, just months after being tapped by Bush to head the US Drug Enforcement Administration ( DEA ), Karen Tandy threw her weight behind a grassroots anti-drug campaign called "Pray for the Children," which according to the group\'s website, maintains, "The power of prayer is unequaled" in influencing adolescents from refraining from drug use. Regarding her endorsement of the program, Tandy explained, "Drug abuse is a scourge that attacks a person\'s soul as well as body, so it\'s fitting that the solution should engage the soul as well."
Also last year, Bush launched "Faith. The Anti-Drug," a multi-million dollar campaign to encourage the religious community to incorporate pot abstinence into their spiritual teachings. "Faith plays a powerful role in preventing youth marijuana use," announced Drug Czar John Walters - himself a disciple of notorious "virtuecrat" and former drug czar William Bennett - at the campaign\'s kickoff party. He added, "We are urging youth ministers, volunteers and faith leaders to integrate drug prevention messages and activities into their sermons and youth programming, and are providing them with key tools and resources to make a difference."
Faith. The Anti-Drug?
But are such campaigns "making a difference?" And are they even appropriate? Critics resoundingly say "no" on both counts.
"Religious drug treatment programs [like those favored by Bush] turn back the medical clock to the 19th Century," says Samantha Smoot of the Texas Freedom Network, a faith-based initiative watchdog group whose membership includes over 7,500 religious and community leaders. "The President values programs that say: \'We can pray you out of your addiction\' more than programs that say: \'We will treat your addiction with counseling, medical treatment and spirituality.\' Even more outrageous is his insistence that taxpayers foot the bill for his dangerous approach."
It\'s also potentially unconstitutional, according to Rev. Barry W. Lynn, Executive Director of Americans United, a religious liberty watchdog group based in Washington, D.C. that argues for the importance of church-state separation in safeguarding religious freedom. "This is a massive shell game," he says. "The administration insists no public funds will be spent on religion, then turns those funds over to groups that openly brag about how much religion they have in their programs. The level of duplicity is staggering."
However, according to drug law reformer Charles Thomas, founder of the Interfaith Drug Policy Initiative, religious faith can play a pivotal role in drug policy - though not in the way Bush decrees.
Faith teaches that it\'s essential that America\'s drug laws be just and compassionate, Thomas wrote in the May/June issue of the interfaith journal, Fellowship. "People of faith may play an essential role in building public support for treating drugs as a health issue instead of a crime," he explained. "Regardless of whether or not it\'s immoral to use drugs, it certainly is wrong to punish people solely for using drugs. Personal morality issues should be addressed by the faith community and family, not by cops, courts and prisons."
Don\'t tell that to GW, however, who has escalated criminal drug law enforcement during his Presidency and overseen the arrests of nearly 5 million Americans for drug crimes - most for no more than minor drug possession. Regrettably, like the Crusades of old where religious transformation typically occurred "by fire and sword," the Bush administration ultimately believes that today\'s drug users federally ordained path to redemption is best achieved by way of a jail house conversion.
This article originally appeared in Heads Magazine in Canada.
Paul Armentano is the senior policy analyst for The NORML Foundation in Washington, DC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by: ChrisPitch on August 24, 2004, 12:03:33 pm
I mean everybody nose that booze wasn\'t Bush\'s lone drug problem. He really is a true Elvis. I guess he just prayed harder than Elvis did so god spared him.
I hear Bush\'s next anti-drug program involves using leeches to suck out the addiction. We\'re such an evolved society. So free.
Chris Pitch
Post by: jocelyn on August 25, 2004, 11:53:39 am
*sigh*
:no:
Post by: davepeck on September 07, 2004, 03:45:20 pm
Post by: jocelyn on September 07, 2004, 08:04:36 pm
Post by: davepeck on September 20, 2004, 08:11:27 am
Post by: Drew_Kingsley on September 20, 2004, 09:30:18 am
Post by: davepeck on September 21, 2004, 07:59:13 am
Post by: Drew_Kingsley on September 27, 2004, 11:30:32 am
In reference to the "hurricane" conspiracy against George W. in Florida.
Post by: Todd on September 29, 2004, 02:38:05 pm
My Fellow Americans:
As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed.
Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete.
This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all
American forces from Iraq. This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning.
Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of
countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict.
This list is short. The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria,
Australia, and Poland are some of the countries listed there.
The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most
of the worlds nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.
Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war.
The American people are no longer going to pour money into
third world Hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption.
Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call
France.
In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect
this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home.
On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth. Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France, or maybe China.
To Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Yo, boys. Work out a
peace deal now. Just note that Camp David is closed. Maybe all of you can go to Russia for negotiations. They have some great palaces there. Big tables, too.
I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France, Germany, and Russia.
Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis.
I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don\'t care about whatever treaty pertains to this.
You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers, and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York.
A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we
are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em? Yep, border security. So start doing something with your oil.
Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA
treaty --- starting now.
We are tired of the one-way highway.
It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own
citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by
saying, "damn tootin."
Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life
around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet.
It is time to eliminate hunger in America.
It is time to eliminate homelessness in America.
It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America.
To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won\'t forget.
To the nations on List 2, a final thought.
Drop dead.
God bless America.
Thank you and good night.
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it
in English, thank a soldier.
Post by: leith on September 29, 2004, 02:40:26 pm
Post by: Mark on September 29, 2004, 03:23:31 pm
How to Debate George Bush (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/29/opinion/29gore.html?ex=1097475349&ei=1&en=bc7deac6c923e8ed)
Happy viewing!
Post by: davepeck on September 30, 2004, 10:09:10 am
Post by: skalnbyc on September 30, 2004, 10:26:57 am
Post by: skalnbyc on September 30, 2004, 10:43:28 am
Post by: leith on September 30, 2004, 02:03:56 pm
Post by: Mark on October 01, 2004, 09:18:35 am
Post by: helluvahat on October 01, 2004, 09:35:13 am
Post by: skalnbyc on October 01, 2004, 09:47:22 am
Post by: davepeck on October 01, 2004, 09:58:45 am
wrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtime
shut up.
Post by: Mark on October 01, 2004, 10:08:17 am
A free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free IraqA free Afghanistan and a free Iraq
Will the real Slim Shady please shut up, please shut up!
Post by: ChrisPitch on October 01, 2004, 01:06:16 pm
Post by: Marcial on October 01, 2004, 03:00:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by davepeck
bush had 30 minutes worth of material for a 90 minute debate..
wrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtimewrongwarwrongplacewrongtime
shut up.
hey peck, take it easy guy! don\'t you know that being the president is "hard work"!
Post by: ChrisPitch on October 01, 2004, 03:14:44 pm
Post by: davepeck on October 04, 2004, 01:42:55 pm
Post by: ChrisPitch on October 04, 2004, 02:04:50 pm
Post by: davepeck on October 04, 2004, 02:09:07 pm
Post by: leith on October 04, 2004, 02:34:39 pm
Post by: leith on October 04, 2004, 02:38:48 pm
Post by: leith on October 04, 2004, 05:32:20 pm
They are a big part of the Coalition right?
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1503&e=1&u=/afp/20041004/ts_afp/iraq_poland_troops_041004153415
Post by: ChrisPitch on October 04, 2004, 06:26:37 pm
Post by: davepeck on October 27, 2004, 07:33:04 am
Post by: ChrisPitch on October 27, 2004, 10:53:32 am
(CNN) -- Ralph Nader is running as independent in his fourth presidential bid but is struggling to get his name on each state\'s presidential ballot. He lacks the backing of the Green Party but also faces opposition from facists and former supporters, who oppose his candidacy and blame him for siphoning off votes from facist Al Gore in key states in the 2000 election.
Below is the latest info on Nader\'s effort.
ON THE BALLOT:
1. Alabama
2. Alaska
3. Arkansas
4. Colorado
5. Connecticut
6. D.C.
7. Delaware
8. Florida
9. Iowa
10. Kansas
11. Kentucky
12. Louisiana
13. Maine
14. Maryland
15. Michigan
16. Minnesota
17. Mississippi
18. Montana
19. Nebraska
20. Nevada
21. New Hampshire
22. New Jersey
23. New Mexico
24. New York
25. North Dakota
26. Rhode Island
27. South Carolina
28. South Dakota
29. Tennessee
30. Utah
31. Vermont
32. Washington
33. West Virginia
34. Wisconsin
35. Wyoming
OFF THE BALLOT:
1. Arizona
2. California
3. Georgia
4. Idaho
5. Indiana
6. Massachusetts
7. Missouri
8. Oklahoma
9. Oregon
10. North Carolina
11. Pennsylvania
12. Texas
13. Virginia
SUING:
1. Hawaii
2. Illinois
3. Ohio
Nader will not appear on the ballot in Pennsylvania. The U.S. Supreme Court declined to hear an appeal from Nader\'s campaign on October 23, allowing a Pennsylvania court\'s ruling that removed him from the ballot to stand.
The Ohio Supreme Court declined to overturn a lower court ruling that kept Nader off the state ballot. The Nader campaign appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, which has not acted on the appeal.
SUING TO GET ON THE BALLOT
HAWAII: Nader filed suit October 8, arguing that Hawaii\'s ballot access laws discriminate against independent candidates and that state elections officials arbitrarily threw out many of his signatures. A federal court denied his legal challenge on October 13 and a state court lawsuit is pending. Hawaii elections official determined that Nader did not submit the required 3,711 valid signatures of registered voters. Nader\'s campaign said it submitted 5,700 signatures by the September 3 deadline.
ILLINOIS: Nader fell short of the 25,000 signatures needed. His campaign submitted more than 32,000 signatures by the June 21 deadline, but state elections officials deemed thousands invalid. Nader lost a federal lawsuit to get on the ballot. He is appealing the federal suit but the U.S. District Court of Appeals has not acted on the appeal yet. Nader also pursued another lawsuit in state court, but the state Supreme Court refused to hear the case. He appealed the U.S. Supreme Court, which has not yet acted on the appeal.
OHIO: On October 22, the Ohio Supreme Court declined to overturn a lower court ruling that rejected Nader\'s request to force Ohio\'s secretary of state to place his name on the ballot. Nader appealed the ruling to the U.S. Supreme Court, which has not yet acted on the appeal A U.S. District judge in Ohio rejected a similar Nader request on October 12. Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell ruled September 28 that Nader fell short of the state\'s 5,000-signature requirement. Nader submitted 14,500 signatures on August 18, but only 3,708 were validated.
ON THE BALLOT
ALABAMA: The Alabama secretary of state announced on September 14 that Nader had submitted enough signatures to be on the ballot. Alabama required 5,000 signatures by September 7.
ALASKA: Nader was certified August 31 as the nominee of the Populist Party -- a "limited political party" -- that exists in Alaska solely for the purpose of putting Nader on the ballot. Nader submitted more than 5,000 signatures by the August 4 deadline. Elections officials certified in late August that he had at least the 2,878 required signatures.
ARKANSAS: The state Supreme Court placed Nader\'s name on the Arkansas ballot October 1. A state judge ruled September 20 that Nader should not be on the ballot because the Populist Party of Arkansas failed to disclose the candidate\'s party affiliation on petitions used to get his name on the ballot. Nader appealed the ruling to the state Supreme Court and that court ordered printing of ballots for the general election halted until it can hear oral arguments. Before the state judge knocked Nader off the ballot, state elections officials verified that Nader had enough signatures to earn a spot on the ballot. He had submitted 1,000 signatures in Arkansas on August 2. And, as allowed by state law, his campaign submitted more signatures between August 2 and August 12.
COLORADO: The Colorado secretary of state placed Nader on the ballot as the nominee of the Reform Party.
CONNECTICUT: On August 31, elections officials verified 7,618 valid signatures for Nader -- more than the required 7,500. Nader says he submitted more than 12,000 signatures, but elections officials did not count them all after Nader met the threshold to get on the ballot.
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA: The D.C. Board of Elections put Nader on the ballot on August 30. He filed more than the required 3,567 signatures on the August 17 deadline, and no challenge to his signatures was filed.
DELAWARE: The Delaware commissioner of elections certified Nader on August 31 as a candidate on the Independent Party ballot line. Nader accepted the endorsement of the Independent Party of Delaware on August 15.
FLORIDA: The Florida Supreme Court ruled September 17 that Nader be placed on the ballot. Nader had been on the Florida ballot as the Reform Party nominee, but was knocked off. A lawsuit filed by four Florida voters -- a facist, a facist, an independent and a Reform Party member -- argued that the Reform Party is not a national party and did not nominate Nader at a national nominating convention. Both conditions are requirements for a candidate to be placed on the Florida ballot as a minor party nominee. A state judge agreed, calling the Reform Party "a skeleton of its former self," with almost no money, only a handful of candidates in a few states and no influence. But the state Supreme Court ruled that Florida law "is not sufficiently clear" to bar independent parties from the Florida ballot. Nader initially got on the ballot when state elections officials accepted on August 31 an application from the Florida affiliate of the Reform Party.
IOWA: Nader submitted 3,100 signatures in Iowa on August 12, one day before the deadline. On August 26, a state review board ruled that he had more than the 1,500 valid signatures necessary.
KANSAS: Nader will appear on the ballot as the Reform Party candidate. The Kansas secretary of state certified Nader as the Reform nominee on August 31.
KENTUCKY: Nader submitted 10,300 ballots -- more than twice the number required -- on the September 7 deadline. The secretary of state certified his inclusion September 9.
LOUISIANA: Nader\'s campaign on September 7 filed the paperwork and paid the $500 fee to be on the Louisiana ballot.
MAINE: The Maine secretary of state placed Nader\'s name on the ballot September 8 after ruling against a challenge to his signatures. The secretary\'s ruling was appealed to the Maine Superior Court, which ruled September 28 that Nader could stay on the ballot. Nader submitted 5,700 signatures on August 9 and elections officials determined that more than the required 4,000 signatures were valid.
MARYLAND: The state Supreme Court put Nader on the ballot September 20. State elections officials had found that Nader, running under the banner of the Populist Party, fell 542 signatures short of the 10,000 required to get on the ballot. The state Supreme Court on September 20 ordered elections officials to accept the previously rejected 542 signatures. Nader had submitted about 15,000 signatures by the August 2 deadline.
MICHIGAN: A Michigan appellate court ruled September 3 that Nader be placed on the ballot. He had submitted approximately 5,000 signatures by the July 15 deadline and facists separately submitted more than 45,000 signatures (31,776 valid signatures were required). State elections officials deadlocked on whether to accept the GOP signatures, because the petition forms indicated they were paid for by Nader\'s campaign when in fact state facists paid for them. But the appellate court ruled that the signatures were not invalid and that Nader should be on the ballot. Nader tried to gain ballot access through the Michigan Reform Party\'s ballot line, but because of an intra-party squabble, he did not get the Reform Party ballot line.
MINNESOTA: Nader submitted 4,781 signatures in Minnesota on September 13 and elections officials verified later that day that he had enough signatures to be on the ballot. The state requires 2,000 signatures by September 14.
MISSISSIPPI: Mississippi elections officials certified Nader for the ballot September 7 as the nominee of the Reform Party.
MONTANA: Nader was placed on the Montana ballot on August 19. He had submitted more than the 5,000 required signatures by the July 28 deadline, and submitted 2,900 more on August 14, as is allowed by Montana law. The Reform Party has an automatic ballot line in Montana, but Nader got on the ballot with signatures anyway.
NEBRASKA: Elections officials certified September 10 that Nader had filed more than the required 2,500 valid signatures.
NEVADA: Nader submitted 11,000 signatures on July 8. The state -- which requires 5,000 signatures by July 9 -- has verified enough signatures for Nader to appear on the ballot.
NEW HAMPSHIRE: New Hampshire officials determined on September 8 that Nader had more than the required 3,000 signatures to be on the ballot. Several groups, including the state facistic Party, filed challenges, but the state Ballot Law Commission ruled against them.
NEW JERSEY: Nader submitted more than 1,400 signatures by the July 26 deadline, exceeding the 800 signatures the Garden State requires to get on the ballot. One challenge to Nader\'s inclusion was filed, but the state Division of Elections denied it.
NEW MEXICO: Both the New Mexico state Supreme Court and a federal court ordered Nader placed on the New Mexico ballot. A state court had removed him in a lawsuit challenging Nader\'s appearance on the ballot filed by facists. The state facists, who sought to overturn a September 9 state Bureau of Elections\' decision to put Nader on the ballot, argued that he did not have sufficient signatures because many of his signatures were not from registered voters and others were duplicates. State facists also said Nader did not qualify for the ballot as an independent candidate because he appeared on other states\' ballots as the Reform Party nominee. State Judge Wendy York found for the facists September 17, removing Nader from the ballot. After it was revealed that she had given $1,000 to John Kerry, she recused herself from the case September 20. State Judge Teresa Baca heard the case and rendered the same decision, again removing Nader from the ballot. Nader then appealed the ruling to the state Supreme Court and to the U.S. District Court in Albuquerque. Nader submitted more than 31,000 signatures -- more than double the 14,527 required -- by the September 7 deadline.
NEW YORK: Nader will appear on New York\'s ballot under both the Peace and Justice Party and the Independence Party ballot lines. New York allows candidates to be nominated by more than one party. Nader submitted 27,000 signatures (15,000 are required) on the August 17 deadline to become the Peace and Justice nominee. The Independence Party nominated him at their party convention. Nader was certified for the ballot September 27.
NORTH DAKOTA: Elections officials certified September 7 that Nader had more than the required 4,000 valid signatures. He had submitted around 5,000 signatures.
RHODE ISLAND: Elections officials determined on September 9 that Nader had submitted more than the required 1,000 signatures to be on the ballot.
SOUTH CAROLINA: Nader will be on the ballot as the nominee of the Independence Party -- the South Carolina affiliate of the Reform Party. He was certified as the nominee September 3. Nader submitted more than the 10,000 required signatures by the July 15 deadline to get on the ballot as an independent candidate, but fewer than 10,000 were found to be valid.
SOUTH DAKOTA: Elections officials certified on August 10 that Nader submitted more than the required 3,346 signatures. Nader filed more than 5,100 signatures August 2, one day before the state\'s deadline. Nader did not appear on the South Dakota ballot in 2000.
TENNESSEE: Nader submitted more than the 275 required signatures by the August 19 deadline. He was certified for the ballot on August 24.
UTAH: Nader was placed on the ballot September 3. He submitted 1,500 signatures on August 16, more than two weeks before of the September 3 deadline. Utah requires 1,000 valid signatures.
VERMONT: Nader submitted 1,278 signatures on the September 17 deadline. Vermont elections officials verified the same day that he had more than the 1,000 signatures required.
WASHINGTON: Nader submitted roughly 2,000 signatures -- twice the 1,000 required -- by the August 24 deadline. The state verified September 1 that Nader had more than 1,000 valid signatures.
WEST VIRGINIA: Nader was certified for the ballot September 3. He submitted more than 23,000 signatures on July 30, three days before the deadline. More than the required 12,963 signatures were ruled valid.
WISCONSIN: The state Supreme Court put Nader on the ballot September 30. Elections officials determined September 10 that Nader filed enough signatures to earn a spot on the ballot and they certified him. But a state court knocked him off the ballot September 28, finding for state facists in lawsuit. The facists argued that one of Nader\'s electors for the 7th Congressional District actually lived in the 8th Congressional District and that Nader couldn\'t appear on the Wisconsin ballot as an independent when he\'s listed as the Reform Party nominee in other states. The state Supreme Court ruled unanimously in favor of Nader\'s appeal.
WYOMING: Elections officials verified more than the required 3,643 required on August 31. Nader had submitted more than 6,500 on the August 23 deadline.
NOT ON THE BALLOT
ARIZONA A judge on July 2 ordered Nader off the ballot when a review by state facists showed his petitions fell short by approximately 550 signatures. Nader filed a lawsuit August 13 challenging the constitutionality of requiring petition gatherers to be qualified to vote in Arizona. The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeal rejected Nader\'s bid to get on the ballot October 15.
CALIFORNIA: Nader submitted 82,923 of the 153,035 required signatures on the August 6 deadline. The Nader campaign says some California Greens want to replace David Cobb, the party\'s nominee, on the ballot with Nader. A Nader spokesman said Nader would accept the ballot line but is not actively pursuing it. He said the campaign is considering three other ways to get on the ballot, but declined to specify them, fearing facists will look for ways to foil the plans.
GEORGIA: Nader failed to file the required 37,153 signatures by the July 13 deadline. He has not made a decision about whether to sue.
IDAHO: Nader did not submit signatures to appear on the ballot as an independent by the August 31 deadline. Instead, he filed a lawsuit arguing that he should be able to submit signatures by the later deadline for third party candidates. On October 20, he dropped his lawsuit.
INDIANA: Nader failed to meet the July 1 deadline, collecting less than half the 29,552 signatures required.
MASSACHUSETTS: The secretary of state announced August 31 that only 8,132 signatures were certified at the local level -- falling below the 10,000 necessary to appear on the ballot.
MISSOURI: Nader submitted 12,893 signatures by the July 26 deadline, but local election officials verified only 9,006 -- 994 short of 10,000 required.
OKLAHOMA: Nader did not file the required 37,027 signatures by the July 15 deadline. His campaign has abandoned its efforts to get on the ballot in Oklahoma.
OREGON: The Oregon Supreme Court on September 22 ruled that Nader will not appear on the Oregon presidential ballot. The ruling reversed a September 9 decision by a state judge who placed Nader on the ballot by finding Secretary of State Bill Bradbury had erred in declaring Nader ineligible. Bradbury ruled September 1 that Nader failed to qualify for the ballot, submitting only 15,088 of the 15,306 required signatures. He said some of the petition signature pages were not properly numbered and his office only counted signatures on pages that were numbered properly. Nader appealed the Oregon State Supreme Court\'s ruling to the U.S. Supreme Court, but that court declined to intervene.
NORTH CAROLINA: Nader did not file the required 100,532 signatures by the July 6 deadline. Nader filed a challenge in federal court to North Carolina\'s ballot access laws, but a judge ruled against him on September 24. The campaign has decided not to appeal the decision.
PENNSYLVANIA: The Pennsylvania Supreme Court on October 19 upheld a lower court\'s decision that removed Nader from the state\'s ballot. Nader appealed the ruling to the U.S. Supreme Court, but the court declined to intervene on October 23. The state Commonwealth Court removed Nader from the state\'s ballot on October 13, ruling that nearly two-thirds of the 51,273 signatures submitted by the Nader campaign were invalid or forged. Pennsylvania requires 25,697 valid signatures and the ruling left him with only 18,818. The court spent three weeks reviewing every signature submitted and the presiding judge, James G. Colins, wrote in the ruling "that this signature-gathering process was the most deceitful and fraudulent exercise ever perpetrated upon this court."
Nader was on the Pennsylvania ballot due to a September 30 ruling by the state Supreme Court that reversed a lower court ruling that would have barred Nader from the ballot. On August 30, the Commonwealth Court had rejected Nader\'s bid to be listed as an independent candidate, saying he forfeited that right by accepting the nomination of the national Reform Party.
TEXAS: Nader filed a lawsuit against Texas May 10 after failing to gather enough signatures by its May 10 deadline. Nader\'s suit claims that May 10 is too early a deadline, that it is unconstitutional to require independent candidates to collect 20,000 more signatures than third party candidates and that it is unconstitutional for the state to expect independents to collect signatures in less time than third parties. A federal district court judge rejected Nader\'s lawsuit September 1 and the 5th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied his appeal on October 6.
VIRGINIA: Nader fell short of the 10,000 required signatures, with the state Elections Board verifying only 7,342 on September 7. The state Elections Board initially refused to count Nader\'s signatures because they were not organized by congressional district and locality. But after an opinion from the state attorney general\'s office, the state elections board decided to count the signatures.
Information compiled by Mark Rodeffer of CNN\'s Political Unit.
Post by: oldnewbie on October 28, 2004, 09:43:30 pm
Post by: davepeck on October 28, 2004, 10:38:13 pm
Post by: FrankZappa on November 01, 2004, 10:35:04 am
Everyone first ducked -- hard -- then looked up to see confetti falling.
Bush looked momentarily stunned, then plain unhappy, then just went on with his speech as the confetti rained to the floor of the Verizon
Wireless Arena... Developing...
Post by: boombox on November 01, 2004, 11:33:32 am
(Whoever he may be!)
Post by: jocelyn on November 01, 2004, 12:13:49 pm
Here\'s hoping we can avoid another election fiasco.
Post by: boombox on November 01, 2004, 05:03:11 pm
Speaking of election fiascos, if anyone is interested, there are a number of rips of Fahrenheit 9/11 to be had by following the link from Kill Ugly Radio (about five articles down the page). For those of you who have yet to discover this fine Zappa site, it is to be found at http://www.killuglyradio.com/hot-poop/
Post by: jocelyn on November 01, 2004, 06:37:28 pm
Post by: boombox on November 01, 2004, 08:29:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
Somehow I can\'t imagine that Zappa would want to be associated with a propagandist like Michael Moore....
True, but then fz was against all forms of censorship too.
Post by: davepeck on November 02, 2004, 07:42:00 am
(http://www.google.com/logos/vote2004.gif)
\'stand behind the stripes that will be yours, so give it good mind.
the whole world will be different soon.\'
Post by: jocelyn on November 02, 2004, 11:48:53 am
guy: why is NH so ignorant?
CowwCowBoogie: what? why is the world so ignorant?
guy: yaeh but as long as it comes to this election
guy: which is what we\'re dealing with now
guy: i just wonder why maine and nh are so ignorant?
CowwCowBoogie: NH is no worse than any other battleground state
guy: yeah
guy: i think it just really confuses me considering its in the predominatly liberal New England
CowwCowBoogie: besides, I can\'t really get mad at any swing state... it\'s no wonder it\'s a close election. both candidates are idiots.
CowwCowBoogie: NH and Maine have always been conservative
CowwCowBoogie: christ we were settled by Puritans Guy it\'s really suprising MA isn\'t more conservativeguy: yes they are
guy: but kerry is the lesser evil
guy: everyone knows that
guy: yeah i know Joc
guy: but that\'s all changed
guy: yeah by an elite white class
CowwCowBoogie: it\'s not all changed, that\'s a silly statement
guy: are you kidding me
CowwCowBoogie: you can see puritanism in so many of our laws
guy: the middle class
guy: yeah i know
CowwCowBoogie: Also, you can\'t say "everyone knows that" about kerry. I don\'t even know if I know that. I don\'t trust the guy, AT ALL.
guy: i was going to add something tot hat
guy: but i was cut off
CowwCowBoogie: no one stopped you, it\'s instant messenger, you can write whatever you want whenever you want, you can\'t GET cut off. i don\'t think the normal \'rules\' of conversation apply to internet
CowwCowBoogie: sheesh
guy: all i know is i hate conservatives with a passion
CowwCowBoogie: that is an ignorant statement and a cruel generalization.
guy: whats not ignorant at all?
guy: im sorry
guy: im flustered
guy: thats not cruel
guy: conservatives are evil, non-humanistic, racist, bigotted capitalist, god fearing fucks
guy: at least liberals want peace
CowwCowBoogie: LMAO I AM a fiscal conservative
CowwCowBoogie: and saying liberals all want peace is a blanket statement, that\'s ridiculous
guy: i never said all
CowwCowBoogie: example: JFK inflamed the war in Vietnam
guy: i said liberals
CowwCowBoogie: and he was one heck of a liberal
guy: yes he did
guy: i dont even know why im here
guy: im sorry
guy: i have a test
CowwCowBoogie: saying liberals want peace is the same as saying all liberals want peace- take a semantics course
guy: i\'d rather not
CowwCowBoogie: and saying all conservatives are anything is very close minded
guy: i dont get anal over evert word
guy: oh yeah, the linguistics police will run after me
CowwCowBoogie: well when you are going to condemn a big group of people, you need to be careful about your words Guy
guy: no conservatives= a better world
CowwCowBoogie: you sound like a fascist
guy: conservatives are fucked
CowwCowBoogie: I suppose I am fucked then... at least regarding my fiscal opinions
CowwCowBoogie: the basis of conservatism is a good one, and I like to believe that the majority of people also happen to be good too, you can\'t say they\'re all evil, or biggots, or whatever. That\'s absurd. It\'s an idiotic statement, the facist party is made up of real people Guy, most of whom are good I like to think. They\'re not a bunch of neo-Nazis. It\'s simple: smaller federal governemnt= more power for the people & more state decisions to keep things more individualized.
CowwCowBoogie: more individual freedoms, not hard to see why conservatives would want that is it? Sure the party has gone awry in the last four years, but you don\'t change your affiliation because of one bad apple....
guy: take a good read at the frank zappa book... you\'ll see what i mean
CowwCowBoogie: umm, i\'ll think for myself, thanks though
UGH.
Post by: davepeck on November 02, 2004, 12:00:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by jocelyn
name has been witheld to protect the bonehead.
...
guy: yeah
...
you need to be careful about your words guy
:lol:
Post by: skalnbyc on November 02, 2004, 12:41:36 pm
I think we can learn a lot if we give many perspectives the time of day before writing them off. I consider myself a liberatarian but do not think some of their ideas while ever mesh with the mainstream (like shrinking government to the size of a pea). They do have some interesting ideas on economic and social freedom though.
I can\'t understand how anyone can be truly excited about either Bush or Kerry.
At least we have the Breakfast to follow in times of trite politics.
Post by: Todd on November 02, 2004, 12:42:07 pm
sounds like a bonehead
Post by: jocelyn on November 02, 2004, 12:52:29 pm
Post by: jocelyn on November 02, 2004, 12:56:38 pm
Quote
Originally posted by alexanderzurflu
I consider myself a liberatarian but do not think some of their ideas while ever mesh with the mainstream (like shrinking government to the size of a pea). They do have some interesting ideas on economic and social freedom though.
Yes. I am registered as an independent because no party\'s platform is quite right for me, but I think the libertarian views come closer to mirroring my views than any other. However, I do have some major disputes with the libertarian party as well, particularly the border issue. I do not think this country can have open borders...
Post by: skalnbyc on November 02, 2004, 01:01:37 pm
Libertarian principles are closely aligned with me too.
Post by: ChrisPitch on November 02, 2004, 01:28:54 pm
For the record, I am an independent who loathes Bush, did not favor Kerry out of the facistic nominees, and who thinks the greatest propaganda in our country is what the actual media doesn\'t show and the fact that all of the presidential candidates do not get coverage, aren\'t allowed to debate, etc. (and I\'m not just talking about Nader). Yes I know that candidates must receive 5 percent of the vote to be allowed to debate, but I disagree with using a finite number to determine if one is allowed to express the ideology behind their candidacy in a national forum. This basically says that if Nader had 4.99 precent he wouldn\'t be "worthy" of debating Bush and Kerry, but that if he had 5.0, he would be. Another in a long line of the blatant stupidity that defines our culture.
Of course, if everyone was allowed to debate, someone like Nader might actually win a state, which would force the media\'s hand to cover him, and get him some neccessary funding, which would pose a major threat to the RepubliCrats. So the two big parties know that their bread is buttered with the major networks and the golden handshakes will continue to be given so long as the only two candidates that get any "equal time" are the two that already have the most money.
I am voting for Ralph Nader, much as I did in 2000, and am proud to do so.
In any event...
A BASIC OVERVIEW OF THE THIRD PARTIES AND THEIR CANDIDATES (from CNN)
While the facists and facists dominate the headlines, many other political parties have eyes on the White House. Check out the parties below which have run presidential campaigns in the recent past and those that could contend this election season.
Reform
Many of the Reform Party\'s top issues -- opposing NAFTA and similar trade agreements, shedding the growing national debt and instituting political reform -- reflect the views of its founder, businessman and 1992 and 1996 presidential candidate Ross Perot. This year the party has endorsed independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader, and plans to formally nominate him at its national convention July 22-25 in Columbus, Ohio, according to party officials.
Green
The Green Party received national attention in 2000 when its presidential candidate, consumer advocate Ralph Nader, won 2.7 percent of the vote, infuriating some facists who believe Nader\'s candidacy took votes from facist Al Gore and helped facist George W. Bush win the closely contested election. U.S. activists formed the party in 1984, basing it on the German Green Party. The "Greens" stress environmentalism, nonviolence, social justice and "grassroots organizing" as a counter-balance to the two major political parties. Nader, also the party\'s 1996 nominee, is running as an independent in 2004, but still sought the Green\'s endorsement, even picking prominent party member Peter Camejo as his running mate. But the Greens instead nominated Texas lawyer David Cobb, who has made growing the party a priority and said he may adjust his strategy to ensure President Bush does not win re-election.
Libertarian
The Libertarian Party favors minimizing the federal government\'s authority in favor of a free-market economy, free trade, nonintervention in international affairs and a dedication to "personal freedom." In 1996 and 2000, investment adviser Harry Browne was the party\'s presidential nominee. At its late May convention in Atlanta, Georgia, Texas constitutional scholar and computer expert Michael Badnarik came from behind to defeat movie producer Aaron Russo and radio talk show host Gary Nolan to win the Libertarian Party\'s presidential nomination. Richard Campagna, an attorney in Iowa City, Iowa, took the party\'s vice presidential nod.
Socialist
While once a prominent national political force, the Socialist Party USA now focuses primarily on local elections and key issues, seeking the presidency on a "case-by-case" basis. The party platform, which it calls "both coherent and radical," faults capitalism for harming the environment, fostering economic inequality (particularly for minorities and women) and helping corrupt the government, and urges major institutional reform. Walt Brown -- a Navy veteran, lawyer and former Oregon state senator -- is running as the party\'s 2004 presidential nominee with Vermont teacher Mary Alice Herbert as his running mate.
Natural Law
Founded in 1992 to "bring the light of science into politics," the Natural Law Party advocates field-tested "solutions" -- such as mediation, organic farming and applying scientific laws -- in education, health, crime, trade, international affairs, environmental and other matters. In 2000, the party\'s presidential nominee was one of its founders, Iowa physicist John Hagelin, who also received support from a sizable segment of the Reform Party. The Natural Law Party will not nominate a presidential ticket this year, according to party officials.
Independence
Until last year, the Independence Party was the only third party with a governor in its ranks -- Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura. (Maine Gov. Angus King, who also left office in January 2003, was an independent and did not formally belong to a party.) The party was formed in Minnesota in 1992 and changed names when it combined with the Minnesota Reform Party in 1996. It cut ties with the national Reform Party in 2000 and returned to its original name. The Independence Party is now a state-by-state organization, not a national one, and a Minnesota party official said the party is not likely to nominate a presidential ticket. The party, strongest in the Gopher State, aims to attract "centrist voters" with its calls for campaign reform, nonpartisanship and anti-corruption and anti-lobbying efforts.
Constitution
In an anticipated move, the Constitution Party nominated Maryland attorney and anti-abortion activist Michael Peroutka for president at its national convention June 23-26 in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. The Constitution Party supports a strict constitutional interpretation limiting the federal government\'s roles, fighting the "corruptive influence of political parties" and bolstering the Bible\'s influence in public life, particularly the U.S. legal system. Chuck Baldwin, a Baptist pastor and syndicatd talk radio host, is Peroutka\'s running mate.
Post by: skalnbyc on November 02, 2004, 01:39:02 pm
Massachusetts Senator Tedd Kennedy was in a two way race for his seat with a Libertarian a few years ago and refused to debate her, even though the party has major party status in the state (Green\'s have major party status too).
Post by: jocelyn on November 02, 2004, 01:54:58 pm
The debates are useless.
Post by: jocelyn on November 02, 2004, 02:12:33 pm
Post by: leith on November 02, 2004, 02:20:32 pm
Oh yeah Kennedy\'s use of the media was brilliant and ahead of his time. Clinton sure watched Kennedy footage that is for sure.
Post by: jocelyn on November 02, 2004, 02:28:05 pm
Post by: ChrisPitch on November 02, 2004, 03:40:58 pm
One way third parties have a chance is if all those who dislike both of main candidates lose their apathetic "I don\'t give a fuck" mentality, do their homework on one of the others, and should one strike them, get out and pull the lever. It starts with winning one state, a small one, such as a VT, or a NH, or a even a CT.
I dislike the facistic notion that if you vote for Nader, you\'re voting for Bush. Too many facists merely scratch the surface and disagree with the right just enough to distinguish themselves from facists, rather than directly attack them on the multitude of obvious errors. Kerry is another example. Dennis Kucinich wasn\'t and you know how he did (or maybe you don\'t). That\'s why I voted Nader in 2000 and will vote him again today instead of Kerry, Bush, David Cobb, Michael Badnarik, Walt Brown, or Michael Peroutka.
With that said, I will not go to sleep unhappy if Kerry wins. I know the reality of the situation and I know it will only go one of two ways. I just hope it doesn\'t go the same way again.
Post by: Wolfman on November 02, 2004, 10:44:03 pm
I know it\'s "close", but let\'s not kid ourselves: Bush is going to win. He\'s got a lead, he\'s the defending champ, and if push comes to shove he\'s got his brother to make sure that the most important swing state goes his way.
The over/under for the existance of the United States of America is the year 2150.
Post by: Wolfman on November 02, 2004, 11:39:47 pm
Post by: Wolfman on November 03, 2004, 07:37:00 am
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041103/capt.dcje10711030736.bush_dcje107.jpg)
The thing that really made me worry about Kerry is that he never led in the last 6 months. Give him credit for making it close, but close is all he got. It\'s just like a basketball team that goes down by 18, then gets it back to within 2, but never takes the lead. It happens all the time. Those last two points are so hard.
So get comfy with 4 more years of the W. If we don\'t kill at least 500,000 Iraqis during this term, I will consider this term a failure. And here\'s some sunshine for all you Bush haters: He definitely won\'t win in 2008!
Post by: FrankZappa on November 03, 2004, 07:48:51 am
If you want an interesting listen today, I suggest howard stern followed by rush. Complain all morning and gloat all afternoon.
Post by: Wolfman on November 03, 2004, 08:13:31 am
Quote
Originally posted by FrankZappa
no, but that wont stop jeb from running
You\'re right about that. I already predicted Jeb victory in the "Coming in 2009" thread. And the twins will run for president/vice president together in 2036, but will lose to Pecoraro/Maturo, completeing Dave\'s incredible run from Mayor of East Haven to the Oval Office. The Breakfast play the victory party.
Post by: Drew_Kingsley on November 03, 2004, 12:07:55 pm
Post by: davepeck on November 05, 2004, 10:32:48 am
Post by: boombox on November 05, 2004, 07:36:56 pm
What gets me about this whole thing is the press saying there were record turnouts. Given the population of the US, there must be a hell of a lot who didn\'t vote or are somehow disenfranchised. Or else the US is as apathetic as the UK.
Post by: jocelyn on November 07, 2004, 07:47:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by FrankZappa
and if the dems put up hillary
The other terrible thing about Kerry losing- great chance of that beast getting the facistic ticket. God I hate that woman. Conniving (sp?), manipulative bitch...
Post by: oldnewbie on November 14, 2004, 11:38:52 am
By Greg Jonsson
Of the Post-Dispatch
11/13/2004
COLUMBIA, Mo. - It ain\'t Amsterdam, and it\'s still got nothing on Berkeley.
But when voters in Columbia passed two propositions decriminalizing marijuana, they made this mid-Missouri college town about the closest thing the Midwest has to offer.
Decriminalization means if you\'re caught in the city with a small amount of marijuana, "you don\'t get arrested, you don\'t go to jail, and you don\'t get a record," according to Dan Viets, a Columbia defense attorney who helped spearhead the effort to pass the propositions. He\'s also defended clients against marijuana charges here for 18 years.
"These people don\'t deserve to be treated like criminals," Viets said. "They aren\'t a threat to society."
The number of voters who agreed on Nov. 2 startled supporters and foes alike.
Almost 70 percent of voters backed Proposition 1, which makes it legal for seriously ill patients to possess and use marijuana if they have a doctor\'s permission.
More than 60 percent voted for Proposition 2, which requires arrests for possession of 35 grams or less of pot be handled in municipal court, not state court where consequences are more severe.
In municipal court, defendants will face smaller fines and no jail time. First-time offenders could have their prosecution deferred and charges dropped if they stay out of trouble.
Municipal court also means students busted on misdemeanor charges in the city would not lose their financial aid under the Higher Education Act, which strips funds from recipients with marijuana convictions in higher courts.
"It doesn\'t help society to have people drop out of college," Viets said. "It\'s counterproductive. People who commit murder or rape or robbery can still get student loans. It\'s irrational."
In a town with tens of thousands of college students, that message resonated.
"I think it\'s a good idea," said Nate Tomasi, a Mizzou senior from Springfield, Mo., who supported the propositions. "I don\'t want my tax money going to taking kids out of school. Marijuana laws right now are a little too strict for the actual consequences."
Students like Tomasi might have helped make the difference in this election. When a similar measure went before voters last year, the smaller turnout of mostly older voters narrowly defeated the proposition.
But the turnout and support for the propositions on Nov. 2 reveal that liberal college students aren\'t the only ones who voted for the propositions, Viets said. A growing number of adults nationwide say they\'ve tried pot, and a majority support medical use of marijuana and decriminalization, he said.
Average people in their 20s, 30s and 40s, both conservative and liberal, passed the propositions.
"This isn\'t just a college town phenomenon," he said. "College students were helpful, but they did not dominate this election."
It may be too early to light up in celebration, however, and not everyone will be taking part.
Opponents and law enforcement officials say the laws address problems that don\'t really exist and take decision-making authority away from police and prosecutors.
For example, they say misdemeanor marijuana charges were already a low priority.
"The idea that law enforcement was rushing in and cuffing people and throwing them in jail with no prior history is a misnomer," said Boone County Prosecuting Attorney Kevin Crane. "We weren\'t filling up the jail with people who didn\'t have associated criminal offenses or a prior history. It just isn\'t happening."
First-time offenders were already sent to municipal court, according to Crane and Columbia Police Chief Randy Boehm. They\'re concerned that the new law treats repeat offenders the same way.
"It removes law enforcement discretion as to how a case should be dealt with," Boehm said. "We have to treat a fourth- or fifth- or sixth-time offender the same as a first-time offender."
There are still many unanswered questions, as well. Are campus police bound by the new laws? Will the laws encourage more people to use marijuana? Does the medical marijuana proposition put the city in conflict with state law? What kind of documentation is required to show a doctor\'s recommendation to have cannabis?
The medical marijuana law makes it legal for patients to possess and use pot in Columbia, but gives them no legal source for their supply. That\'s something David Sapp hopes to change now that the first step has been taken.
Sapp, 54, was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis 20 years ago. As his condition worsened in 1996, a neurologist in the San Francisco area, where Sapp lived, recommended he try marijuana for some of his symptoms.
Other drugs either hadn\'t helped treat symptoms such as spasticity - a contraction of muscles that can range from muscle stiffness to severe, painful spasms - or their side effects were too severe.
Marijuana helped, and he bought it from legal medical marijuana sources in California and ingested it in baked goods or tea. As his condition progressed, he quit his law practice and moved back to Missouri in 1998.
He moved to Columbia, where he went to graduate school and still had friends. But before Proposition 1 passed, he couldn\'t use marijuana legally.
"Medical marijuana wasn\'t available and I didn\'t want to support the black market, so I haven\'t used it much here," he said. "It\'s really made a difference in my life, and not for the better. My limited movement is even more limited."
He said he\'d like to see a legitimate source of medical marijuana set up, as in California, so the chronically ill can get the drug safely and legally.
"In California, I saw rooms filled with sick people who could get something that really helped," Sapp said. "I think you\'d find that here if there was a safe place people could go."
That might happen if Viets and others who want to change marijuana laws are successful with their next target: the Missouri General Assembly.
"We strongly believe the state Legislature, even a facist-dominated state Legislature, should be capable of passing a medical marijuana law," Viets said. "Clearly we had large numbers of facists who supported this proposal. It\'s a conservative value that the government should leave us alone and stay out of our lives if we\'re not hurting anybody. And very few people have been victimized by a marijuana smoker."
===================================
Medical use
On Nov. 2, Montana became the 11th state to exempt medicinal marijuana patients from state criminal penalties. Other states that have enacted laws protecting qualified patients who use marijuana include: Alaska, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Maryland, Nevada, Oregon, Vermont and Washington.
Recreational use
States that have reduced the punishment for those caught with small amounts of marijuana include: Oregon, Alaska, California, Nevada, Colorado, Nebraska, Minnesota, Mississippi, Ohio, New York and Maine.
Cities and college towns that have reduced the punishment for those caught with small amounts of marijuana include: Ann Arbor, Mich.; Seattle; Detroit; Pittsburgh; Madison, Wis.; and Austin, Texas.
Source: National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws
Post by: skalnbyc on November 14, 2004, 05:46:09 pm
Our friend Leith needs his Greens to relieve his pain yet most places on this soil try to deny him that. Rediculous!
Post by: davepeck on November 15, 2004, 10:32:46 am
Americans not apologizing (http://www.werenotsorry.com/).
Non-Americans accepting apologies (http://www.apologiesaccepted.com)
Post by: FrankZappa on May 16, 2006, 07:52:15 am
Quote
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. First lady Laura Bush said on Sunday she does not believe opinion polls showing her husband\'s approval ratings at record low levels.
Interviewed on Fox News Sunday, Laura Bush said she did not think people were losing confidence in President George W. Bush, despite a series of polls showing support for him at its lowest point in his five-year presidency and among the lowest for any president in the past 50 years.
"I don\'t really believe those polls. I travel around the country. I see people, I see their responses to my husband. I see their response to me," she said.
"As I travel around the United States, I see a lot of appreciation for him. A lot of people come up to me and say, \'Stay the course\'."
Many recent polls have put Bush\'s job approval rating below 35 percent. One, the Harris poll, published last Friday, measured his approval at 29 percent, the first time any survey has put his support below the 30 percent mark. Two other polls published last week put his job approval at 31 percent.
In a separate interview on ABC\'s "This Week," Laura Bush said her husband\'s popularity was suffering because the country had been through a difficult year.
We\'ve had a very, very difficult year, starting with the hurricane last September, but already because of the terrorist attack in 2001 and then the war on terror since then," she said. "He\'s the one that has to make the hard decisions. And, of course, they don\'t please everyone."
Mrs. Bush complained that when her husband\'s popularity was high, newspapers did not put that on the front page. Now it was low, they took great delight in highlighting the fact.
Asked if she thought the media had been unfair, Mrs. Bush said: "No, I don\'t think it\'s necessarily unfair. I think it\'s just, you know, I think they may be enjoying this a little bit."
source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060514/pl_nm/bush_laura_dc_5)
discuss...
Post by: antbach on May 16, 2006, 08:33:59 am
Post by: davepeck on May 16, 2006, 08:40:19 am
so many good times, all in one thread! :D
Post by: FrankZappa on May 16, 2006, 09:05:35 am
Quote from: davepeck
so many good times, all in one thread! :D
some day, years from now, this thread will be a book.
Post by: Wolfman on May 16, 2006, 09:53:11 am
Post by: Todd on May 16, 2006, 01:48:07 pm
Quote from: FrankZappa
"I don\'t really believe those polls. I travel around the country. I see people, I see their responses to my husband. I see their response to me," she said.
"As I travel around the United States, I see a lot of appreciation for him. A lot of people come up to me and say, \'Stay the course\'."
Hey Laura- Ever think that all of the people that dislike you and your husband wouldn\'t waste their time to walk up and talk to you??? Let alone be near you?? :sigh:
Post by: Me! on June 09, 2006, 02:12:15 pm
Post by: leith on August 23, 2007, 11:53:44 am
Saying the U.S. leaving Vietnam caused more Vietnamese deaths than if we had stayed and the same will happen to Iraq. Totally glossing over the fact that we were losing that war in a BIG way hmmmm just like we are losing this one. This guy really believes if he says it it\'s true. Unbelievable this guy really.
Post by: derickw on August 23, 2007, 12:07:28 pm
Quote from: leith;156125
OMFG! Just when you think someone can\'t be any more stupid and Bush goes and compares Iraq to Vietnam.
Saying the U.S. leaving Vietnam caused more Vietnamese deaths than if we had stayed and the same will happen to Iraq. Totally glossing over the fact that we were losing that war in a BIG way hmmmm just like we are losing this one. This guy really believes if he says it it\'s true. Unbelievable this guy really.
just a couple more months of this assholes dribble..... it can\'t come soon enough
Post by: Yoda on August 23, 2007, 01:27:29 pm
If you look at the popularity poles from both sides, it\'s really scary to think that next year either Hillary or Guiliani will be in the White House!
Post by: Spacey on August 23, 2007, 01:36:26 pm
Quote from: leith;156125
OMFG! Just when you think someone can\'t be any more stupid and Bush goes and compares Iraq to Vietnam.
Saying the U.S. leaving Vietnam caused more Vietnamese deaths than if we had stayed and the same will happen to Iraq. Totally glossing over the fact that we were losing that war in a BIG way hmmmm just like we are losing this one. This guy really believes if he says it it\'s true. Unbelievable this guy really.
In 2003 he was upset when a reporter made a comparison of Iraq to Vietnam.
Sad really that he is the ruler of the Free world. The reign of Terror ends when Bush is out.
Post by: FrankZappa on August 23, 2007, 03:17:04 pm
Quote from: Spacey;156153
The reign of Terror ends when Bush is out.
you can\'t seriously believe that. Or to put it in laymen’s terms "Mr. Burns’s reign of terror is over! Let a whole new reign of terror begin!"
Let me tell you something that all you facists are going to hate about a year from now that apparently everyone is wearing blinders about:
You need the facists to win. No matter who wins, we will not do a full pull out. We won’t do anything close. We are imbedded there through at least the end of 09 according to the last pentagon projections I heard of. Plus, you can\'t pull out fully. It is a fact that you all know that if we pull out, the country will dissolve into chaos, just like the south did in reconstruction, 90% of the USSR did in the early 90s; france did after the revolution, etc. And guess what\'s going to happen after that? Bush is going to walk around with a giant shit eating grin on his face saying I told you so, and history will see him as the genius that no one would listen to. That plus the sound bite of his "I\'m going to START the process to put a man on mars" will be played ad-nausea 20 years after when we do it the same way jfks is with the moon. 30 years from now, he will be the brilliant mind that the country was too blinded to support.
But don\'t worry, because it won’t go down that way. If a facist wins, we stay and we\'re staying for a long ass time. Naturally, that means you\'re going to all be hating EVERYONE in the facistic Party for lying to you and saying they would pull out. So what happens then? The American public retaliates at the following election and the facists’ loose power all over the place, the facists then taking over congress and the presidency which gives them power to elect the judicial simply on majority, and the facists now run all 3 branches.
You NEED the facists to take the next election in order for the facistic Party to survive. If the facists win, they will simply continue the current administrations policies on the war and it will be the downfall of the party.
I hold no political affiliation, and I\'m very liberal in the majority of my views. I\'ve been an independent since I was 16.
flame away.
Post by: derickw on August 23, 2007, 03:36:08 pm
Post by: Spacey on August 23, 2007, 03:49:36 pm
Quote from: Yoda;156148
I dislike Bush as much as the rest, but the Iraq can be compared to Vietnam if you look at it from the perspective of it being a Civil War that we stuck our noses into. And as much as I would like to see it, I wouldn\'t look for a quick withdrawl after the election.
If you look at the popularity poles from both sides, it\'s really scary to think that next year either Hillary or Guiliani will be in the White House!
I believe it was 2003 when Bush snapped on a reporter and called the allegations that Iraq and Vietnam were even compared as foolish. I watched in on MSNBC last night.
Both are messes.
Post by: antbach on August 23, 2007, 04:21:39 pm
Post by: Spacey on August 23, 2007, 04:29:38 pm
Quote from: FrankZappa;156166
Quote from: Spacey;156153The reign of Terror ends when Bush is out.
you can\'t seriously believe that. Or to put it in laymen’s terms "Mr. Burns’s reign of terror is over! Let a whole new reign of terror begin!"
Let me tell you something that all you facists are going to hate about a year from now that apparently everyone is wearing blinders about:
You need the facists to win. No matter who wins, we will not do a full pull out. We won’t do anything close. We are imbedded there through at least the end of 09 according to the last pentagon projections I heard of. Plus, you can\'t pull out fully. It is a fact that you all know that if we pull out, the country will dissolve into chaos, just like the south did in reconstruction, 90% of the USSR did in the early 90s; france did after the revolution, etc. And guess what\'s going to happen after that? Bush is going to walk around with a giant shit eating grin on his face saying I told you so, and history will see him as the genius that no one would listen to. That plus the sound bite of his "I\'m going to START the process to put a man on mars" will be played ad-nausea 20 years after when we do it the same way jfks is with the moon. 30 years from now, he will be the brilliant mind that the country was too blinded to support.
But don\'t worry, because it won’t go down that way. If a facist wins, we stay and we\'re staying for a long ass time. Naturally, that means you\'re going to all be hating EVERYONE in the facistic Party for lying to you and saying they would pull out. So what happens then? The American public retaliates at the following election and the facists’ loose power all over the place, the facists then taking over congress and the presidency which gives them power to elect the judicial simply on majority, and the facists now run all 3 branches.
You NEED the facists to take the next election in order for the facistic Party to survive. If the facists win, they will simply continue the current administrations policies on the war and it will be the downfall of the party.
I hold no political affiliation, and I\'m very liberal in the majority of my views. I\'ve been an independent since I was 16.
flame away.
I actually didn\'t believe it but do now that you front, I do.
This country is fucked for at least the next 8 years until the powers that be get shit straightened out.
Post by: SlimPickens on August 23, 2007, 05:05:48 pm
Quote from: FrankZappa;156166
You need the facists to win. No matter who wins, we will not do a full pull out. We won’t do anything close. We are imbedded there through at least the end of 09 according to the last pentagon projections I heard of.
This assumes that our Military can sustain combat operations into \'09. There\'s talk that they can\'t.
But I think you\'re probably right. Whoever inherits this shit storm is screwed. Pull out and watch a civil war and subsequent genocide or stay waist deep in the quagmire swamp trying to "heard cats"?
Quote from: FrankZappa;156166
Plus, you can\'t pull out fully. It is a fact that you all know that if we pull out, the country will dissolve into chaos, just like the south did in reconstruction, 90% of the USSR did in the early 90s; france did after the revolution, etc. And guess what\'s going to happen after that? Bush is going to walk around with a giant shit eating grin on his face saying I told you so, and history will see him as the genius that no one would listen to.
Like the way they view Nixon these days? It doesn\'t take a rocket scientist to predict the disasterous results of a early US withdrawal. Nixon... I mean George W. should be judged on the mistakes he made leading us into this war and the mistakes he made in commanding our troops for the 1st 2 years of the war.
I sure hope that Gen David Petraeus can pull things together, but as most will agree now, there is no military solution over there. And I have little faith in the current administrations diplomatic capabilities.
Quote from: FrankZappa;156166
But don\'t worry, because it won’t go down that way. If a facist wins, we stay and we\'re staying for a long ass time. Naturally, that means you\'re going to all be hating EVERYONE in the facistic Party for lying to you and saying they would pull out. So what happens then? The American public retaliates at the following election and the facists’ loose power all over the place, the facists then taking over congress and the presidency which gives them power to elect the judicial simply on majority, and the facists now run all 3 branches.
You NEED the facists to take the next election in order for the facistic Party to survive. If the facists win, they will simply continue the current administrations policies on the war and it will be the downfall of the party.
I hold no political affiliation, and I\'m very liberal in the majority of my views. I\'ve been an independent since I was 16.
flame away.
I just want someone to win (repub or dem) that I have faith in as a leader. From the beginning I always thought that G.W. would be a hell of a guy to have a beer with (if you could knock him off the wagon), but I wouldn\'t want him running even the 7 -11 around the corner from me. I want the smartest guy in the room running our country.
Post by: kindm's on August 23, 2007, 05:26:07 pm
Almost all of the major players from both sides of the fence get their money from the same places. There really isn\'t much difference between facist and facist. As much as they would like us to think there is a difference there is not. Look at the facists now. They all got elected for the most part because we the people were tired of the War and the Bush admin. policies. They were all liek we will clean up Washington and we will right the wrongs etc etc.
Well what has happened ? Nothing at all. The war continues. The facists authorized more troops, Pelosi\'s first statement basically said they took impeachment off the table, even tho many many constitutionalists (repubs) have been calling for it. They have not made any headway with regards to investigating the illegal wire tapings of US citizens. In fact the stupid facists just gave Bush carte Blanche to continue it and make it even broader.
It doesn\'t really matter who is in charge anymore. They are all corrupt. Not one of them even appears to be a decent human being. The power they have corrupts even the most principled of them and if it doesn\'t the others simply do not deal or marginalize the folks who really want to make changes.
Post by: Spacey on August 23, 2007, 05:28:23 pm
Post by: derickw on August 26, 2007, 11:19:54 am
Quote from: Spacey;156210
Blame Blackwater and the the private sector of military.
blame the American people for being a bunch of complacent sheep, did everyone forget WE the people are the majority and this government was built to relay the needs and wants of the people. but if they don\'t speak loud enough it all falls on deaf ears
Post by: jking on August 27, 2007, 10:40:03 am
Post by: Gfunk on November 12, 2007, 06:16:28 pm
Post by: FrankZappa on November 12, 2007, 08:24:27 pm
Dear residents of East Haven, CT:
Quality work with your mayoral election proccess. You are my new heros. Sneaking bags of shreaded paper out of the building in the middle of the night during a recound where there were still found to be 160 more votes than people who showed up for a 21 vote victory= brilliant. I wish you the best of luck in this, the smooth start to what will prove to be yet another connecticut mayors proud term in office that would even make bridgeport or waterbury jealous.
Post by: jocelyn on November 12, 2007, 08:46:08 pm
Quote from: Gfunk;168630
So what are folks thoughts about this Ron Paul guy?
Great guy, doesn\'t stand a chance.
Post by: wildcoyote on November 12, 2007, 08:58:58 pm
Quote from: FrankZappa;168654
that would even make bridgeport or waterbury jealous.
Let\'s not get carried away. Giordano really upped the ante in the Dirty Water. After the two previous mayors got carted off for run of the mill bribery/embezzlement crimes, ol\' Phil found a way to make his mark.
The best part was when I ran into his predecessor and convicted felon Joe Sanipetro strutting around like a king during Giordano\'s indictment. Sick really.
Post by: Igziabeher on November 12, 2007, 10:43:56 pm
Post by: Gordo on November 13, 2007, 01:15:50 am
"And the irony is, Rudy Giuliani, probably the most underqualified man since George Bush to seek the presidency, is here talking about any of the people here. Rudy Giuliani... I mean, think about it! Rudy Giuliani. There\'s only three things he mentions in a sentence -- a noun, a verb, and 9/11. There\'s nothing else! There\'s nothing else! And I mean this sincerely. He\'s genuinely not qualified to be president."
for anyone who didn\'t see paul vs. giuliani:
you could look up hannity\'s post debate ridiculousness with paul on youtube too. very entertaining.
i just find it a shame that, today, there is much more emphasis on which party you\'re voting for than who you\'re voting for. unfortunately this idea is now instilled in future voters at a young age. this notion took a strong turn for the worse more recently than people think.
where the fuck have all the true leaders gone? just a bunch of fucking puppets now, it blows.
Post by: siflandollie on November 13, 2007, 12:22:48 pm
Post by: FrankZappa on November 13, 2007, 01:15:18 pm
Post by: Igziabeher on November 13, 2007, 02:54:02 pm
"I\'m politicin\' with this chicken
Wonderin\' if I\'m a creeper
Lil\' hood rat bitch from 25th
Named Tamika
Comin\' through like I do you know
Gettin\' my bark on
Knew she was a thug
\'Cuz when I met her she had her scarf on"
I will tell you one thing though:
if you fly back home a week before a local election, and spend the next 3 days goin\' to shows, then the next 5 blowin\' up the sp0t on the entire town\'s bullshit backasswards selfcontradictory election recall, then you don\'t even need to vote. you can just dance down the side of the road and f\' shit up while keepin\' your mouth shut.
Post by: Inner_Score on December 03, 2007, 08:45:19 pm
Quote from: tiedyetoga;7965
On a side note when WTC 1 happened, Bill Clinton did not go to Ground Zero. He did not even go to NYC for that matter. George W. Bush went to Ground Zero only days after the attack.
That\'s because Clinton didn\'t need to go to WTC in 1993. Hardly nothing happened. Yes, people died, and it was obviously a "Terrorist" attack--but it was in nowhere near any proportion of the second attack on the WTC.
And also, you didn\'t see FDR fly out to Pearl Harbor either, did you?
Post by: Todd on December 04, 2007, 01:41:55 am
Post by: leith on December 04, 2007, 02:02:21 am
Quote from: Todd;171294
WOW, now that\'s a quote from the beyond dead!!
You might be surprised at how he would respond to this if he posted here anymore.
Post by: Todd on December 04, 2007, 02:23:43 am
Post by: leith on December 04, 2007, 02:31:34 am
Quote from: Todd;171308
Grayson smokes Gdubs\' pole!! ;)
rotfl
Post by: Gfunk on December 04, 2007, 02:54:19 am
Post by: leith on December 04, 2007, 03:02:51 am
Quote from: Gfunk;171311
That cat was around when i first joined .info. what was the deal with him, why did he disapear. I want deets about the meltdown. maybe i\'ll just do a search... nah, nope.
He moved to California. Doing just fine. That\'s probably all you really need to know.
Post by: Gfunk on December 04, 2007, 03:05:31 am
Quote from: leith;171312
Quote from: Gfunk;171311That cat was around when i first joined .info. what was the deal with him, why did he disapear. I want deets about the meltdown. maybe i\'ll just do a search... nah, nope.
He moved to California. Doing just fine. That\'s probably all you really need to know.
no meltdown? fair enough. does he hit up the breakfast when they\'re in Cali (i know that is not exactly frequent)?
p.s. sorry for the thread jack
Post by: Inner_Score on December 04, 2007, 04:52:29 pm
Post by: SlimPickens on December 04, 2007, 05:00:49 pm
Quote from: Gordo;168722
where the fuck have all the true leaders gone? just a bunch of fucking puppets now, it blows.
Working in the private sector as CEO\'s earning 7 figure salaries and 8 figure bonuses. Public service is a death wish.
Post by: Inner_Score on December 04, 2007, 05:10:20 pm
Quote from: SlimPickens;171409
Quote from: Gordo;168722
where the fuck have all the true leaders gone? just a bunch of fucking puppets now, it blows.
Working in the private sector as CEO\'s earning 7 figure salaries and 8 figure bonuses. Public service is a death wish.
To add to that, politicans are no longer working for the people. They\'re only working for themselves--that\'s why everything in American politics is screwed up. The closest real politican that America has had was Reagan.
Post by: FrankZappa on January 04, 2008, 11:43:07 am
And people wonder why more than half of my 401K is in international markets. :banghead:
Post by: SkyePrizm on January 04, 2008, 12:01:58 pm
Post by: SlimPickens on January 04, 2008, 02:01:49 pm
Quote from: SkyePrizm;175365
i really need to start watching the news some more. I didn\'t even know who that Huckabee guy is.
2 things you should know about huckabee:
1. Doesn\'t believe in evolution.
2. Didn\'t know anything about the NIE report on Iran the day after it came out. If you don\'t follow politics, I\'ll put it in sports terms that may make more sense. That would be like a candidate to become the commissioner of baseball not knowing anything about the Mitchell Report.
Quote from: FrankZappa;175359
Um, that money doesn\'t exist! Stop printing up money, you\'re driving us into a recession!:
We\'ve been off the gold standard since the 30\'s.
Driving? Wrong tense. Try driven. But Dubya doesn\'t like to use the word "recession". Doesn\'t like the sounds of it. Makes him look bad.
Post by: Gfunk on January 04, 2008, 02:06:18 pm
Quote from: FrankZappa;175359
good news! The dollar has plummeted so drastically the last year in comparison to other economies world wide that now other countries are beginning to no longer accept it as a currency (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7098370.stm). For some reason if you just keep printing up new bills to fund a war without actually having gold to back them, the value drops. Go figure. Don\'t worry though, every facist has stated that the way they will fund all of these projects they want to do once they are elected president is to use the money that is currently going to fund the war. Um, that money doesn\'t exist! Stop printing up money, you\'re driving us into a recession!
And people wonder why more than half of my 401K is in international markets. :banghead:
we are so fucked
Post by: SkyePrizm on January 04, 2008, 10:43:53 pm
Quote from: SlimPickens;175385
Quote from: SkyePrizm;175365i really need to start watching the news some more. I didn\'t even know who that Huckabee guy is.
2 things you should know about huckabee:
1. Doesn\'t believe in evolution.
2. Didn\'t know anything about the NIE report on Iran the day after it came out. If you don\'t follow politics, I\'ll put it in sports terms that may make more sense. That would be like a candidate to become the commissioner of baseball not knowing anything about the Mitchell Report.
Oh boy. Yeah. This not looking good. I read he was a former preacher and the governor of Arkansas. I feel like he totally came out of the woodwork. When I read the paper today and saw the facist and facist winners, i was truly puzzled. I know more about the facistic candidates than the facist.....and sadly, i\'m a registered facist. In any case, if he makes it all the way, I am going dem and voting for Edwards.
Post by: jocelyn on January 05, 2008, 05:11:40 pm
Quote from: FrankZappa;175359
good news! The dollar has plummeted so drastically the last year in comparison to other economies world wide that now other countries are beginning to no longer accept it as a currency (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7098370.stm). For some reason if you just keep printing up new bills to fund a war without actually having gold to back them, the value drops. Go figure. Don\'t worry though, every facist has stated that the way they will fund all of these projects they want to do once they are elected president is to use the money that is currently going to fund the war. Um, that money doesn\'t exist! Stop printing up money, you\'re driving us into a recession!
And people wonder why more than half of my 401K is in international markets. :banghead:
Me thinks it\'s a bit more complicated than that.
Post by: skalnbyc on January 05, 2008, 05:51:43 pm
Quote from: jocelyn;175516
Huckabee doesn\'t stand a chance, don\'t worry. He is not a serious candidate.
Hucka.Who?
Post by: jocelyn on January 05, 2008, 06:17:42 pm
Post by: SkyePrizm on January 05, 2008, 06:43:38 pm
Quote from: alexanderzurflu;175525
Quote from: jocelyn;175516Huckabee doesn\'t stand a chance, don\'t worry. He is not a serious candidate.
Hucka.Who?
Exactly!
Post by: tyzack on January 07, 2008, 08:04:04 am
Quote from: FrankZappa;175359
good news! The dollar has plummeted so drastically the last year in comparison to other economies world wide that now other countries are beginning to no longer accept it as a currency (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7098370.stm). For some reason if you just keep printing up new bills to fund a war without actually having gold to back them, the value drops. Go figure. Don\'t worry though, every facist has stated that the way they will fund all of these projects they want to do once they are elected president is to use the money that is currently going to fund the war. Um, that money doesn\'t exist! Stop printing up money, you\'re driving us into a recession!
And people wonder why more than half of my 401K is in international markets. :banghead:
Last year when I went to Egypt the visa was $20 US-cash only.
Now it\'s 20 erous, again cash only.
Interesting.
Quote
Stop printing up money, you\'re driving us into a recession!
However, since the company I work for is about 50/50 US/international sales, our profits have shifted to like 30/70 (im not in accounting, so don\'t ask) on our way to posting our largest margins ever. A weak US dollar is not all bad - US goods are now much cheaper overseas.
As someone up there said "Me thinks its alot more complicated than that"
Post by: FrankZappa on January 07, 2008, 08:51:08 am
Quote from: SlimPickens;175385
We\'ve been off the gold standard since the 30\'s.
yea, I know but it doesn\'t mean I like it. Our whole economy is based on the belief that the paper is worth something simply because everyone says it is, but when you move into world wide economy, other people are not as willing to suspend disbelief as much as your average american would. I just find it depressing. Maybe I\'m just still hoping for a Jeffersonian democracy to break out, but I mean he was THE ONLY president to ever balance the budget*, unlike the other 43 idiots to be elected to power.
*before anyone starts bitching about nixon, clinton, or johnson, I need to point out Jackson was the only one to not only balance but also put us in the black.
Quote from: jocelyn;175516
Huckabee doesn\'t stand a chance, don\'t worry. He is not a serious candidate.
Huckabee will loose in new hampshire. He only won that caucus because of the strong religious precence that turned out for him. It wont happen in new hampshire.
Quote from: jocelyn;175516
Me thinks it\'s a bit more complicated than that.
Oh, I\'m not saying it\'s not, but I\'m not smart enough to explain it on a much higher level and most people here wouldn\'t read it if I did. :shrug:
Post by: SlimPickens on January 07, 2008, 09:37:43 am
Quote from: FrankZappa;175659
Maybe I\'m just still hoping for a Jeffersonian democracy to break out,
based on this definition of "jeffersonian democracy":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffersonian_democracy
It seems like we\'re about as far away from that world as we can possibly be right now. I\'m thinking you might not want to hold your breath.
Post by: tyzack on January 07, 2008, 10:32:44 am
Post by: FrankZappa on February 05, 2008, 05:54:54 am
Post by: tyzack on February 05, 2008, 06:58:46 am
In my opinion, if you don\'t vote, you have no right to complain.
Post by: Yoda on February 05, 2008, 08:40:10 am
Post by: BennyBoomers on February 05, 2008, 09:07:48 am
Go and vote! Celebrate the reason this country is great!
...and Go Obama!
Post by: FrankZappa on February 05, 2008, 10:28:19 am
Post by: Gfunk on February 05, 2008, 12:40:43 pm
Quote from: FrankZappa;178788
<- wishes he lived in new hampshire so he could stay independent and still vote in primaries
Yeah its kinda cool. I had to change my party affiliation from independant to dem in order to vote for Obama, but I changed right back to independant on my way out. Pretty quick and easy really.
Post by: ds673488 on February 05, 2008, 12:51:15 pm
Post by: Blackieshamps on February 05, 2008, 01:14:06 pm
Post by: Klout on February 05, 2008, 10:27:30 pm
Post by: Mamalakabubadaya on February 05, 2008, 10:31:30 pm
Quote from: Klout;178888
barack is my homeboy
Post by: SkyePrizm on February 05, 2008, 11:28:34 pm
Quote from: Gfunk;178806
Quote from: FrankZappa;178788<- wishes he lived in new hampshire so he could stay independent and still vote in primaries
Yeah its kinda cool. I had to change my party affiliation from independant to dem in order to vote for Obama, but I changed right back to independant on my way out. Pretty quick and easy really.
Yeah, i didn\'t think of that. I\'m a registered facist, so i voted for McCain, just to vote cause i think these primaries are so important. But honestly, I really would have rather been registered as a facist so i could vote for Obama. i didn\'t realize you could switch so last minute.
Post by: SlimPickens on February 06, 2008, 07:04:57 am
Also:
Bush threats veto of spy bill because:
"Without retroactive protections for phone companies and other telecom providers, the letter noted, the companies might be unwilling to help the government track down terror suspects in the future as they were asked to do in the days following the 2001 attacks."
Is that the most ludicrous rationale you\'ve ever heard? If he followed the law, and got court orders for his wiretaps they\'d have no choice. But he doesn\'t feel he needs to follow laws, laws are for the "poor, huddled masses".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/05/AR2008020503103.html
The other interesting news item from the over night: Huckabee loses the Oklahoma primary to McCain. In what seemed to be a lock for Huckabee, the heavy evangelical state decided to back the status quo/pro-war McCain over their bible thumpin\' brother Huckabee. I guess in Oklahoma, where there\'s a ton of Military Bases/ Companies, war is more important then the word of their savior. Go figure.
Post by: ds673488 on February 06, 2008, 10:15:54 am
Quote from: Klout;178888
barack is my homeboy
im sure hed LOVE to hear him portrayed that way
Post by: SkyePrizm on February 07, 2008, 10:30:47 am
Post by: jocelyn on May 20, 2008, 08:47:01 pm
I am irritated by the lack of respect for his family that so many people are showing. I am sick of hearing the hateful words coming from people regarding Ted\'s political career and personal life. Over the past two days I have even heard many railing Jack and Bobby. How inappropriate. People should try and show some decency and tact, and keep their anger contained when the Kennedy family has been hit with such terrible news.
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 06:40:04 am
Quote from: jocelyn;190456
I am irritated by the lack of respect for his family that so many people are showing. I am sick of hearing the hateful words coming from people regarding Ted\'s political career and personal life. Over the past two days I have even heard many railing Jack and Bobby. How inappropriate. People should try and show some decency and tact, and keep their anger contained when the Kennedy family has been hit with such terrible news.
Joc - I agree with you in the respect that I feel bad for the man and I hope that he recovers from this. On the other hand, growing up, all I heard was Kennedy this and Kennedy that; basically because he was the first Irish/Catholic President. I think that what we forget is that this family has all of the money and beautiful possessions and historic tradition because big daddy was a bootlegger and connected to organized crime during prohibition. It was those connections that got JFK the election and it was those same connections that brought upon the demise for Jack and Bobby, albeit for different reasons. So, yes, they\'ve lived a glamorous life and have been considered America\'s royal family, but when you take away all of their dirty money, they\'re just like the rest of us. Again, I hope Ted recovers.
Post by: tyzack on May 21, 2008, 07:13:05 am
I have never been a fan of Teddy (or the Kennedys) politically, but that\'s not exactly good news.
Post by: jocelyn on May 21, 2008, 10:46:00 am
Quote from: Yoda;190492
Quote from: jocelyn;190456
Joc - I agree with you in the respect that I feel bad for the man and I hope that he recovers from this. On the other hand, growing up, all I heard was Kennedy this and Kennedy that; basically because he was the first Irish/Catholic President. I think that what we forget is that this family has all of the money and beautiful possessions and historic tradition because big daddy was a bootlegger and connected to organized crime during prohibition. It was those connections that got JFK the election and it was those same connections that brought upon the demise for Jack and Bobby, albeit for different reasons. So, yes, they\'ve lived a glamorous life and have been considered America\'s royal family, but when you take away all of their dirty money, they\'re just like the rest of us. Again, I hope Ted recovers.
Actually, I haven\'t forgotten any of that. I am not among the star-struck when it comes to the Kennedys. This is exactly my point, that bringing this stuff up is totally inappropriate and irrelevant right now.
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 11:07:15 am
Post by: jocelyn on May 21, 2008, 11:12:24 am
Post by: SlimPickens on May 21, 2008, 11:38:53 am
Quote from: Yoda;190521
Unfortunately it\'s impossible to mention the name Kennedy and not bring up the other stuff. It\'s the same thing as people mentioning the british royalty (spits wad at the controlling bastards) without mentioning Diana - and believe me, I\'m sick of hearing about all of them.
It is possible. It\'s called restraint, you should try it sometime.
Post by: ds673488 on May 21, 2008, 11:43:41 am
Post by: jocelyn on May 21, 2008, 11:57:07 am
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 12:18:06 pm
Quote from: ds673488;190527
it seems like this family gets one tragety after another
If you make a deal with the devil, eventually the devil will come for his dues.
Post by: jocelyn on May 21, 2008, 12:45:45 pm
That family never deserved to have loved ones murdered, or sick and taken away from them prematurely. That\'s a cruel implication, not to mention incredibly callous.
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 01:05:20 pm
Post by: tyzack on May 21, 2008, 01:12:06 pm
Quote from: jocelyn;190542
That family never deserved to have loved ones murdered, or sick and taken away from them prematurely. .
No family does.
That statement doesn\'t really mean anything.
Post by: SlimPickens on May 21, 2008, 01:33:11 pm
Quote from: Yoda;190547
My comments are based on the fact that daddy Kennedy was mobbed up and used those connections to get the presidency for his son. When his sons decided to turn their back on the deals that they made, well you know what happened. Do I think it\'s right, no, does it surprise me, no. We all know how that sort of business is done, whether we read about it in books, the paper, or have seen it glorified in movies and on tv. Do I think this family has deserved the tragedy it has had, no, but you can understand why some of it has happened. Having grown up in North Jersey and had friends and family who\'ve dealt with these people, you know to stear clear at all means (and by these people, I don\'t mean the Kennedy\'s).
Ahh so you believe we should all be judged on the sins of our fathers. Broseph help us all.
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 01:55:19 pm
Again, I don\'t think what happened to them was right, I\'m just not surprised by it.
Post by: Vassillios on May 21, 2008, 01:56:39 pm
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 02:06:31 pm
Post by: SlimPickens on May 21, 2008, 02:08:38 pm
Quote from: jocelyn;190456
Just in case anyone is unaware, Ted Kennedy has a brain tumor. Whether you love him or hate him, he has been perhaps the country\'s most influential senator, and has served in the Senate for 46 years. I am no fan of his politics, and I\'m not going to get into Chappaquiddick, but he is known for working very hard for his constituents, and for being available to them for issues both large and small. I am saddened indeed that the Kennedy family has been hit with another calamity.
I am irritated by the lack of respect for his family that so many people are showing. I am sick of hearing the hateful words coming from people regarding Ted\'s political career and personal life. Over the past two days I have even heard many railing Jack and Bobby. How inappropriate. People should try and show some decency and tact, and keep their anger contained when the Kennedy family has been hit with such terrible news.
See the problem Jocelyn, is that you put this nice thought in the "Political Pissing Contest" Thread, which I believe opened up your simple "well wishes" to all this off the subject idiocy. Maybe next time you want to express kind words upon a Kennedy (who apparently is getting what\'s coming to them) you can start up a new thread. Just a thought.
Post by: jocelyn on May 21, 2008, 02:14:51 pm
Sorry I even started this conversation. I guess I was expecting to see a little more sympathy here for our fellow man.
Quote from: SlimPickens;190559
See the problem Jocelyn, is that you put this nice thought in the "Political Pissing Contest" Thread, which I believe opened up your simple "well wishes" to all this off the subject idiocy. Maybe next time you want to express kind words upon a Kennedy (who apparently is getting what\'s coming to them) you can start up a new thread. Just a thought.[/QUOTE
See the problem Jocelyn, is that you put this nice thought in the "Political Pissing Contest" Thread, which I believe opened up your simple "well wishes" to all this off the subject idiocy. Maybe next time you want to express kind words upon a Kennedy (who apparently is getting what\'s coming to them) you can start up a new thread. Just a thought.[/QUOTE
Yeah, I was going to start a new thread, but figured it would get merged anyhow, since some on here seem to think that everything to do with current events, politics, etc. belongs in this thread.
Post by: davepeck on May 21, 2008, 02:21:13 pm
Quote from: jocelyn;190560
Yeah, I was going to start a new thread, but figured it would get merged anyhow, since some on here seem to think that everything to do with current events, politics, etc. belongs in this thread.
? http://www.thebreakfast.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11567 ?
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 02:26:27 pm
Post by: SlimPickens on May 21, 2008, 03:04:40 pm
Quote from: jocelyn;190560
Yeah, I was going to start a new thread, but figured it would get merged anyhow, since some on here seem to think that everything to do with current events, politics, etc. belongs in this thread.
You got what was comin\' to you woman! May your decendents rot in hell!!
Post by: tyzack on May 21, 2008, 03:09:25 pm
Quote from: Yoda;190558
I\'d much rather play Bullet (Misfits)
I love that song
Quote from: davepeck;190565
Quote from: jocelyn;190560Yeah, I was going to start a new thread, but figured it would get merged anyhow, since some on here seem to think that everything to do with current events, politics, etc. belongs in this thread.
? http://www.thebreakfast.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11567 ?
Quote from: tyzack
{Admin} If there is a thread like this, feel free to delete/move this post/thread.
Post by: kindm's on May 21, 2008, 03:35:08 pm
Taken from a post on ts.com
"the Kennedy brothers have made such an oversized contribution to our life and times, and really at their own sacrifice. They were born to fabulous comfort and wealth. They could have very easily used their position for further personal monetary enrichment, or have simply lived idle, opulent lives. Instead, they dedicated themselves to the service of others, losing life (Joe) and blood (Jack) defending our nation and ideals in WWII, losing life serving in or working towards the highest office in the land (Jack and Bobby), and Teddy himself, toiling for years in congressional service, keeping the ideas and ideals of he and his brothers progressively advancing. Teddy traded an easy, spoon fed life for one dedicated to the rich and poor, brilliant and developmentally disabled, gay and straight, male and female, regardless of race, creed, ability or any other factor we used to divide ourselves from each other.
I\'m the first to admit the foibles and flaws of the Kennedy brothers, being a student of history and having closely studied the CIA. I\'ve been and will continue to be critical of the mistakes they\'ve made. But one can scarcely argue against the impact they\'ve had on this nation, the ideals they\'ve helped foster and instill, and in Teddy\'s case, the sheer magnitude of the legislation he\'s brought to pass in his more than 40 years in service and leadership in the US Senate - the sheer number of real people whom he has helped, directly, through the force of his work and the ideas of he and his brothers.
The eventual, and tragically near, passing of Ted Kennedy will be nothing but a tragic event for this country"
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 03:49:11 pm
Post by: SlimPickens on May 21, 2008, 03:52:44 pm
Quote from: kindm\'s;190576
Not my words but I don\'t think I could have said it better.
Taken from a post on ts.com
"the Kennedy brothers have made such an oversized contribution to our life and times, and really at their own sacrifice. They were born to fabulous comfort and wealth. They could have very easily used their position for further personal monetary enrichment, or have simply lived idle, opulent lives. Instead, they dedicated themselves to the service of others, losing life (Joe) and blood (Jack) defending our nation and ideals in WWII, losing life serving in or working towards the highest office in the land (Jack and Bobby), and Teddy himself, toiling for years in congressional service, keeping the ideas and ideals of he and his brothers progressively advancing. Teddy traded an easy, spoon fed life for one dedicated to the rich and poor, brilliant and developmentally disabled, gay and straight, male and female, regardless of race, creed, ability or any other factor we used to divide ourselves from each other.
I\'m the first to admit the foibles and flaws of the Kennedy brothers, being a student of history and having closely studied the CIA. I\'ve been and will continue to be critical of the mistakes they\'ve made. But one can scarcely argue against the impact they\'ve had on this nation, the ideals they\'ve helped foster and instill, and in Teddy\'s case, the sheer magnitude of the legislation he\'s brought to pass in his more than 40 years in service and leadership in the US Senate - the sheer number of real people whom he has helped, directly, through the force of his work and the ideas of he and his brothers.
The eventual, and tragically near, passing of Ted Kennedy will be nothing but a tragic event for this country"
It\'s nice to see someone bringing a little common sense, intelligence and decency to the table. I\'m no blind supporter of the Kennedy clan. I think they represent both the best and worst of this country. But to sit back and haul half truths and disrespect because their father was a bootlegger with mafia ties like 60 or 70 years ago is pretty lame.
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 04:33:55 pm
Teddy killed a young girl while driving drunk and left the scene only to show up the next day sober - so sue me if I don\'t shed a tear over him (again brain cancer suck). I know that he\'s basically a political god in new england, but outside of there\'s, he\'s just another politician.
And note, that in all of my posts, I spoke only about Daddy Kennedy, Jack, Bobby and Ted. I didn\'t invoke the rest of the family because I don\'t have issues with them.
I\'d much rather shed my tears over the 4,000+ soldiers who died in Iraq.
Post by: kindm's on May 21, 2008, 06:40:28 pm
Quote from: Yoda;190580
What is ts.com? When I go to that site, it\'s a get tickets site?
Quote from: Yoda;190588
What can I say - I\'m sick of hearing about the Kennedy\'s and I\'m sick of hearing about the British Royaltly.
Teddy killed a young girl while driving drunk and left the scene only to show up the next day sober - so sue me if I don\'t shed a tear over him (again brain cancer suck). I know that he\'s basically a political god in new england, but outside of there\'s, he\'s just another politician.
And note, that in all of my posts, I spoke only about Daddy Kennedy, Jack, Bobby and Ted. I didn\'t invoke the rest of the family because I don\'t have issues with them.
I\'d much rather shed my tears over the 4,000+ soldiers who died in Iraq.
sorry ts.com is shorthand for taperssection.com.
Do you hold such disdain for first lady Laura Bush. She has also killed a person with her car.
And no, outside of New England he is still a US senator who has worked in the senate for 30+ years and is respected on both sides on the aisle. I would bet that a lot of the legislation he has pushed in those 30 years has benefited you directly. He and his family have done a lot for this country. What exactly have you done ?
He also was one of only a few willing to stand up to the bush admin when they were beating the drums of war. trying to stop those 4000+ soldiers from losing their lives. JFK served in WWII as did several of his brothers. Bobby worked endlessly to promote civil rights. Perhaps you might show some sympathy to a guy whos brothers were murdered because of what they believed.
Daddy was a rum runner big deal. Bush\'s grand father Prescott Bush was part of a group of individuals who wanted to overthrow the US government to replace it with a fascist regime like the Nazi\'s. He also did business with the Nazi\'s up to and during the war.
Perhaps you should pick up a history book and stop parroting RNC talking points.
You don\'t have to like the guy but holding his feet to the fire for a tragic accident v. all the years of service to this country is unfair IMHO. I think he has more than paid his debt to society.
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 06:46:33 pm
And for the record, I\'m a facist.
Post by: jocelyn on May 21, 2008, 08:41:38 pm
(http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/50348/427368.jpg)
Post by: Yoda on May 21, 2008, 08:47:03 pm
Post by: tyzack on May 22, 2008, 09:36:23 am
Post by: tyzack on May 23, 2008, 08:22:06 am
Quote
facists and Our Enemies
By JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
May 21, 2008; Page A19
How did the facistic Party get here? How did the party of Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and John F. Kennedy drift so far from the foreign policy and national security principles and policies that were at the core of its identity and its purpose?
Beginning in the 1940s, the facistic Party was forced to confront two of the most dangerous enemies our nation has ever faced: Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. In response, facists under Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy forged and conducted a foreign policy that was principled, internationalist, strong and successful.
AP
Harry Truman and John F. Kennedy, 1961.
This was the facistic Party that I grew up in – a party that was unhesitatingly and proudly pro-American, a party that was unafraid to make moral judgments about the world beyond our borders. It was a party that understood that either the American people stood united with free nations and freedom fighters against the forces of totalitarianism, or that we would fall divided.
This was the facistic Party of Harry Truman, who pledged that "it must be the policy of the United States to support free peoples who are resisting attempted subjugation by armed minorities or by outside pressures."
And this was the facistic Party of John F. Kennedy, who promised in his inaugural address that the United States would "pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and the success of freedom."
This worldview began to come apart in the late 1960s, around the war in Vietnam. In its place, a very different view of the world took root in the facistic Party. Rather than seeing the Cold War as an ideological contest between the free nations of the West and the repressive regimes of the communist world, this rival political philosophy saw America as the aggressor – a morally bankrupt, imperialist power whose militarism and "inordinate fear of communism" represented the real threat to world peace.
It argued that the Soviets and their allies were our enemies not because they were inspired by a totalitarian ideology fundamentally hostile to our way of life, or because they nursed ambitions of global conquest. Rather, the Soviets were our enemy because we had provoked them, because we threatened them, and because we failed to sit down and accord them the respect they deserved. In other words, the Cold War was mostly America\'s fault.
Of course that leftward lurch by the facists did not go unchallenged. facistic Cold Warriors like Scoop Jackson fought against the tide. But despite their principled efforts, the facistic Party through the 1970s and 1980s became prisoner to a foreign policy philosophy that was, in most respects, the antithesis of what facists had stood for under Roosevelt, Truman and Kennedy.
Then, beginning in the 1980s, a new effort began on the part of some of us in the facistic Party to reverse these developments, and reclaim our party\'s lost tradition of principle and strength in the world. Our band of so-called New facists was successful sooner than we imagined possible when, in 1992, Bill Clinton and Al Gore were elected. In the Balkans, for example, as President Clinton and his advisers slowly but surely came to recognize that American intervention, and only American intervention, could stop Slobodan Milosevic and his campaign of ethnic slaughter, facistic attitudes about the use of military force in pursuit of our values and our security began to change.
This happy development continued into the 2000 campaign, when the facistic candidate – Vice President Gore – championed a freedom-focused foreign policy, confident of America\'s moral responsibilities in the world, and unafraid to use our military power. He pledged to increase the defense budget by $50 billion more than his facist opponent – and, to the dismay of the facistic left, made sure that the party\'s platform endorsed a national missile defense.
By contrast, in 2000, Gov. George W. Bush promised a "humble foreign policy" and criticized our peacekeeping operations in the Balkans.
Today, less than a decade later, the parties have completely switched positions. The reversal began, like so much else in our time, on September 11, 2001. The attack on America by Islamist terrorists shook President Bush from the foreign policy course he was on. He saw September 11 for what it was: a direct ideological and military attack on us and our way of life. If the facistic Party had stayed where it was in 2000, America could have confronted the terrorists with unity and strength in the years after 9/11.
Instead a debate soon began within the facistic Party about how to respond to Mr. Bush. I felt strongly that facists should embrace the basic framework the president had advanced for the war on terror as our own, because it was our own. But that was not the choice most facistic leaders made. When total victory did not come quickly in Iraq, the old voices of partisanship and peace at any price saw an opportunity to reassert themselves. By considering centrism to be collaboration with the enemy – not bin Laden, but Mr. Bush – activists have successfully pulled the facistic Party further to the left than it has been at any point in the last 20 years.
Far too many facistic leaders have kowtowed to these opinions rather than challenging them. That unfortunately includes Barack Obama, who, contrary to his rhetorical invocations of bipartisan change, has not been willing to stand up to his party\'s left wing on a single significant national security or international economic issue in this campaign.
In this, Sen. Obama stands in stark contrast to John McCain, who has shown the political courage throughout his career to do what he thinks is right – regardless of its popularity in his party or outside it.
John also understands something else that too many facists seem to have become confused about lately – the difference between America\'s friends and America\'s enemies.
There are of course times when it makes sense to engage in tough diplomacy with hostile governments. Yet what Mr. Obama has proposed is not selective engagement, but a blanket policy of meeting personally as president, without preconditions, in his first year in office, with the leaders of the most vicious, anti-American regimes on the planet.
Mr. Obama has said that in proposing this, he is following in the footsteps of Reagan and JFK. But Kennedy never met with Castro, and Reagan never met with Khomeini. And can anyone imagine Presidents Kennedy or Reagan sitting down unconditionally with Ahmadinejad or Chavez? I certainly cannot.
If a president ever embraced our worst enemies in this way, he would strengthen them and undermine our most steadfast allies.
A great facistic secretary of state, Dean Acheson, once warned "no people in history have ever survived, who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies." This is a lesson that today\'s facistic Party leaders need to relearn.
Mr. Lieberman is an Independent facistic senator from Connecticut. This article is adapted from a speech he gave May 18 at a dinner hosted by Commentary magazine.
Post by: SlimPickens on May 23, 2008, 09:29:50 am
Post by: wildcoyote on May 23, 2008, 09:57:21 am
Quote from: SlimPickens;190768
Reading that load of horseshit made me vomit up my toaster strudel.
I think the toaster strudel may have done that on it\'s own. :vomit:
Post by: SlimPickens on May 23, 2008, 09:58:39 am
Post by: tyzack on May 23, 2008, 10:02:23 am
I am NOT a facist.
Post by: SlimPickens on May 23, 2008, 11:05:10 am
Post by: tyzack on May 23, 2008, 11:26:59 am
Post by: Gfunk on May 23, 2008, 03:58:47 pm
Quote from: tyzack;190789
From where I stand both parties are equally evil.
I am an independant, and from where I stand, the dems are the lesser of two evils. The GOP is a bunch of corrupt, greedy, war-mongering, crooks. The Dems cant hold them accountable for jack shit. So which is worse, the fear-mongering crooks who make a mockery of the Constitution, or the crooks who let the other crooks get away with their crookery, while our tax dollars pay for all of it and our country goes downhill like an 18 wheeler who\'s breaks went out? :shrug:
Quote
Today, less than a decade later, the parties have completely switched positions. The reversal began, like so much else in our time, on September 11, 2001. The attack on America by Islamist terrorists shook President Bush from the foreign policy course he was on. He saw September 11 for what it was: a direct ideological and military attack on us and our way of life. If the facistic Party had stayed where it was in 2000, America could have confronted the terrorists with unity and strength in the years after 9/11.
Instead a debate soon began within the facistic Party about how to respond to Mr. Bush. I felt strongly that facists should embrace the basic framework the president had advanced for the war on terror as our own, because it was our own. But that was not the choice most facistic leaders made. When total victory did not come quickly in Iraq, the old voices of partisanship and peace at any price saw an opportunity to reassert themselves. By considering centrism to be collaboration with the enemy – not bin Laden, but Mr. Bush – activists have successfully pulled the facistic Party further to the left than it has been at any point in the last 20 years.
The War in Iraq does not = The War on Terror. The repubs and joe lie-berman continue to try and link Iraq to the terrorists who attacked the U.S. on 9/11. Fact is, they were not from Iraq, and until we went in and fucked some shit up, there was no Al-Qaeda In Iraq. Unfortunately, a lot of people in this country can\'t distinguish between Islamist terrorists and the majority of Muslims (who don\'t want death to America), and are more than willing to gobble up this garbage that the right wing spews on the daily. sad really :sadban:
Here is a really good response to joke lie-bermans nannies written by Joe Biden in the Wall Street Journal http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121150000249615875.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121150000249615875.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries)
Post by: Todd on May 23, 2008, 05:22:41 pm
Quote from: Gfunk;190819
Fact is, they were not from Iraq,
Yeah, they were from Saudi Arabia.
Post by: Drew_Kingsley on May 23, 2008, 05:59:52 pm
Quote from: SlimPickens;190778
This presidency has caused me to completely lose faith in the American political system. facist, facist they both suck.
To quote the great Lewis Black:
Allow me to explain how our federal government works. To begin with, by the federal government I mean facists and facists working together. And the only thing dumber than a facist or a facist is when those pricks work together. You see, in our two-party system, the facists are the party of no ideas and the facists are the party of bad ideas. It usually goes something like this. A facist will stand up in Congress and say, "I\'ve got a really bad idea." And a facist will immediately jump to his feet and declare, "And I can make it shittier."
Post by: SlimPickens on March 24, 2009, 08:57:56 pm
(http://www.newslose.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/george_bush_press_conference.jpg)
(http://www.nato.int/pictures/1999/990424e/b990424-d029.jpg)
(http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/POLITICS/03/24/obama.news.conference/art.obama.02.pool.jpg)
Post by: tyzack on March 25, 2009, 07:28:27 am
Post by: SlimPickens on March 28, 2009, 09:13:23 pm
Quote
As complex as all the finances are, the politics aren\'t hard to follow. By creating an urgent crisis that can only be solved by those fluent in a language too complex for ordinary people to understand, the Wall Street crowd has turned the vast majority of Americans into non-participants in their own political future. There is a reason it used to be a crime in the Confederate states to teach a slave to read: Literacy is power. In the age of the CDS and CDO, most of us are financial illiterates. By making an already too-complex economy even more complex, Wall Street has used the crisis to effect a historic, revolutionary change in our political system — transforming a democracy into a two-tiered state, one with plugged-in financial bureaucrats above and clueless customers below.
Matt Taibbi (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26793903/the_big_takeover/print)
Post by: Mamalakabubadaya on April 15, 2009, 04:51:16 pm
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/15/tea.parties/index.html
Post by: skalnbyc on April 15, 2009, 05:01:20 pm
I\'ve said it before: campaign of hope = campaign of hype and more gov\'t intrusion from cradle to grave. Obama is a charlatan fraud and I hope he\'s eventually exposed for it.
Post by: tyzack on April 15, 2009, 05:12:00 pm
Quote from: Mamalakabubadaya;226813
has anyone gone to/seen any of the tea party protests going on today? there are hundreds of people outside of the congressional office that i intern at right now.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/15/tea.parties/index.html
Well...they are represented. They are just in the minority. It\'s democracy, get used to it. They were elated for the last 8 years when they were in the majority. If nothing else it is political theatre, which is entertainiment like all the rest.
Also, these bailouts were proposed and authorized by the previous administration, so keep that in mind too.
I heard an interesting discussion on the news over the weekend with two key points:
1.) Banks are doing fine; more people invested money in banks in the 4th quarter than any time in history, so they are not running out of money.
2.) A percentage in the high 90s of the mortages in this country are being paid on time and are collecting interest. No mater how large a percentage isn\'t, more are, so that argument is a wash.
3.) [this is a conspircacy] Recently (07 and 08) banks had to start reporting their assets differently than previously. You can thank the post-Enron (Sarbanse-Oxly) legislation for this. The most important change is that assets had to be reported at the current value, not at the projected, average, or logical market value of the asset.
If I had an asset that normally would be worth $100,000 dollars, but because of current economic situations, I have to list it at the current market price of, say, $10,000; a net loss in of $90,000 even though the asset is still worth $100,000 (or more), just not today.
Enron kind of took advantage of that loop hole and reported that same asset for $10,000,000, which caused that legislation.
...this is why markets should be free. They are like wars. Regulators are like generals; always getting ready for the last crisis.
Post by: tyzack on April 16, 2009, 01:17:45 pm
Quote
Texas governor says secession possible
Posted: 11:56 AM ET
From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney
(CNN) — Texas Gov. Rick Perry isn\'t ruling out the possibility his state may one day secede from the nation.
Speaking to an energetic and angry tea party crowd in Austin Wednesday evening, the Lone Star State governor suggested secession may happen in the future should the federal government not change its fiscal polices.
"There\'s a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We\'ve got a great union. There\'s absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we\'re a pretty independent lot to boot." (Video below: Tea party fires up debate)
Perry, who is beginning to gear up for what could be a challenging re-election race, rejected more than $500 million in federal stimulus funds earlier this year and has been highly critical of President Obama\'s stimulus package. (Related: Joe "The Plumber" speaks at Michigan tea party)
His comments come a week after endorsing a resolution in the Texas state House reasserting state sovereignty over federal mandates.
Specifically it states that "all compulsory federal legislation that directs states to comply under threat of civil or criminal penalties or sanctions or that requires states to pass legislation or lose federal funding be prohibited or repealed."
Texas, America\'s second biggest state in area and population, was its own nation for 10 years before joining the United States in 1845.
Should Texas one day secede, one man may already be vying to be its president. Actor Chuck Norris said last month he may be interested in the post.
“I may run for president of Texas,” Norris wrote in a column posted at WorldNetDaily. “That need may be a reality sooner than we think. If not me, someone someday may again be running for president of the Lone Star state, if the state of the union continues to turn into the enemy of the state.”
Good luck.
Please see: Civil War.
Post by: kindm's on April 16, 2009, 01:53:52 pm
Quote from: tyzack;226823
Quote from: Mamalakabubadaya;226813has anyone gone to/seen any of the tea party protests going on today? there are hundreds of people outside of the congressional office that i intern at right now.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/15/tea.parties/index.html
Well...they are represented. They are just in the minority. It\'s democracy, get used to it. They were elated for the last 8 years when they were in the majority. If nothing else it is political theatre, which is entertainiment like all the rest.
Also, these bailouts were proposed and authorized by the previous administration, so keep that in mind too.
I heard an interesting discussion on the news over the weekend with two key points:
1.) Banks are doing fine; more people invested money in banks in the 4th quarter than any time in history, so they are not running out of money.
2.) A percentage in the high 90s of the mortages in this country are being paid on time and are collecting interest. No mater how large a percentage isn\'t, more are, so that argument is a wash.
3.) [this is a conspircacy] Recently (07 and 08) banks had to start reporting their assets differently than previously. You can thank the post-Enron (Sarbanse-Oxly) legislation for this. The most important change is that assets had to be reported at the current value, not at the projected, average, or logical market value of the asset.
If I had an asset that normally would be worth $100,000 dollars, but because of current economic situations, I have to list it at the current market price of, say, $10,000; a net loss in of $90,000 even though the asset is still worth $100,000 (or more), just not today.
Enron kind of took advantage of that loop hole and reported that same asset for $10,000,000, which caused that legislation.
...this is why markets should be free. They are like wars. Regulators are like generals; always getting ready for the last crisis.
The unregulated markets are what git us in to this mess to begin with. So more regulation is needed not less. All of these bailouts could have been avoided if the folks who were tasked with this duty were allowed to do their jobs. lets have a quick look at history
Savings and Loan scandal in the 80\'s. First bailout like the current one although small in comparison but at the time the largest ever. OK So what do we know about that. Ignoring who the major players were (ie. McCain etc) the government investigators KNEW about the shady land deals but because of political pressure and continued interference with the investigators that shady business was allowed to continue until it blew up and cost us billions..
Similar sceanrio occurred in the current crisis. There were laws that were in place to prevent a good amount of this BS from happening so what happened. Well the investigators were gutted so there weren\'t enough, when the Attorneys general fro all 50 states saw what was happening they were stone walled by the bush admin, and they used a law from 1800\'s to block them from regulating or investigating the mortgage companies etc.
So you say markets should be free. How free? Are you OK with allowing companies like AIG, Chase, Wachovia etc etc to become so large that their ultimate failure then becomes a national security problem ? Where do you draw the line ? If no lines are drawn then how do purpose to protect people, who is going to make sure these companies keep enough reserves on hand to cover their bets ? People love to say "Markets Should be free" but it is WAY more complex than that.
I agree that these companies should have been allowed to fail. However they should have never been allowed to become the behemoths that they are which then becomes IMHO a security issue when it threatens OUR economy as a whole
Post by: SkyePrizm on April 16, 2009, 06:12:47 pm
Post by: skalnbyc on April 17, 2009, 04:50:33 pm
Quote from: WSJ Editorial;226982
This Tax Is for You
A levy on Joe Six Pack.
Today is the dreaded April 15, but at least in Oregon it\'s even going to cost you more to drown in your tax sorrows. In their sober unwisdom, the state\'s pols plan to raise taxes by 1,900% on . . . beer. The tax would catapult to $52.21 from $2.60 a barrel. The money is intended to reduce Oregon\'s $3 billion budget deficit and, ostensibly, to pay for drug treatment.
If it passes, Oregon will overnight become the most taxing state for suds, one-third higher than the next highest beer tax state, Alaska. The state may do this even though Oregon is the second largest microbrewery producer in the U.S. The beer industry and its 96 breweries contribute 5,000 jobs and $2.25 billion to state GDP. Kurt Widmer of Widmer Brewing Co. says the tax would "devastate our company and small breweries throughout the state." Adds Joe Henchman, director of state projects at the Tax Foundation, "This microbrewery industry has gravitated to Oregon in part due to low beer taxes."
For Oregon to enact punitive taxes on its homegrown beer industry makes as much sense as Idaho slapping an excise tax on potatoes or for New York to tax stock trading. Even without the tax increase, taxes are the single most expensive ingredient in a glass of beer, according to the Oregon Brewers Guild.
But facists who run the legislature are desperate for the revenues to help pay for Oregon\'s 27.9% increase in the general fund budget last year. If they have their way, every time a worker steps up to the bar and orders a cold one, his tab will rise by an extra $1.25 to $1.50 a pint. Half of these taxes will be paid by Oregonians with an income below $45,000 a year. Voters might want to remember this the next time facists in Salem profess to be the party of Joe Six Pack.
Post by: inthewhitelodge on April 17, 2009, 07:44:37 pm
War is also NOT something conservatives want to mess with, especially because our involvement in war costs precious lives and impedes our national sovereignty. Bush-y facists are big spenders, war mingling, and look out for the top guns (bankers in washington). What?! This is exactly what the Obama administration is doing. There is already an influx of troops in Afghanistan (sad because the dems who voted for peace are not being rightfully represented now), and a trillion dollar deficit. Yep, a trillion dollars that the Feds will slice out of each paycheck, and penalize those who work hard for their success.
The regulation should be aimed at reviewing and auditing the Federal Reserve, or outright banishing it, they who keep fucking up our economy by printing money and inflating the system.
Post by: Gfunk on May 07, 2011, 04:38:11 pm
Post by: skalnbyc on May 07, 2011, 04:47:17 pm
Post by: Igziabeher on May 07, 2011, 05:23:23 pm
Post by: Wolfman on May 07, 2011, 06:43:04 pm
Quote from: Gfunk;269036
I keep hearing my conservative friends saying Obama will be a 1 term pres, but the facist candidates so far are pretty hilarious.
I agree that the candidates are hilarious, but I disagree with the implication that hilarious=not viable. This country elected W. Twice. Arnold Schwarzenegger is the governor of the biggest state in the country. A former WWF wrestler recently was governor of Minnesota. These candidates could all have been labeled "hilarious" as well, yet they all won. I would even go so far to say that the traits that you and I consider to make a candidate "hilarious" - or wildly impractical - are the very same traits that give the candidates their appeal to a large number of people. I think that Palin and Trump are terrible candidates and I also think that either is completely capable of winning. In fact, as more and more people say that candidates like Palin cannot win, this actually increases the chances of that candidate winning because it leads to complacency amongst voters who would oppose that candidate. This phenomenon got Scott Brown elected and could do the same for someone like Palin. I do not think she would be a good president at all, but I think she is a totally viable candidate.
Post by: Igziabeher on May 07, 2011, 06:49:18 pm
Post by: kindm's on May 09, 2011, 03:44:37 pm
Quote from: Igziabeher;269038
I don\'t think Obama is so much of a bad president, just congress is full of retards and it doesn\'t allow him to get anything done.
This is a lie that gets played in the press whenever Obama does something that progressives don\'t like.
He gets plenty of stuff done, the problem is that almost all of it is in direct contradiction to his campaign promises. He gets the outcomes he sets out to get. health care was exactly what he wanted (they negotiated it behind closed doors), he kept saying he didn\'t have support for single payer except 61% of the country was for it, he said that the facists were blocking it and they didn\'t have the 60 votes, then when they went to reconciliation where they only needed 50 all of a sudden they couldn\'t do it again.
Gitmo
indefinite detentions
assassinations of US citizens
Kinetic Humanitarian actions
Whistle blower prosecutions
Telecom Immunity
I never would have thought that he would pull 1/2 this shit. I voted for him and it sucks that he took the easy road. He has killed any semblance of hope I had that Washington could be changed for the better. He has made mega-cynics of those of us who never trusted the fed gov at all. He makes decisions not based on what is right or wrong but on what gains the most political capitol.
Post by: bdfreetuna on May 09, 2011, 03:47:40 pm
Post by: phish4breakfast on May 09, 2011, 03:54:20 pm
Post by: Igziabeher on May 09, 2011, 04:00:04 pm
Post by: kindm's on May 09, 2011, 04:34:00 pm
Quote from: phish4breakfast;269106
Anyone we put in there isn\'t gonna do much improving in thir 4-8 year span. We\'re in a shithole we have so many problems that need to be fixed its gonna happen over time if it happens at all
It would take someone who isn\'t concerned with being re-elected to get things done. If you do what is right and not politically expedient you can get things done. The problem all these guys get in to is that they want to be reelected so they are beholden to the power players who hold re-election over their heads.
What is happening is a constant consolidation of power in the executive branch. that march has been on going forever. Congress prefers not to stick its neck out in any meaningful way and acquiesces their power to the president so they do not have to take responsibility for anything. Now the judicial branch is also very weary about getting in to "checking" the executive power. Essentially we now have a king. We have been moving away from rule of law to rule by man.
Post by: bdfreetuna on May 09, 2011, 07:20:20 pm
very well said.
Post by: phish4breakfast on May 09, 2011, 10:38:47 pm
Quote from: kindm\'s;269108
Quote from: phish4breakfast;269106Anyone we put in there isn\'t gonna do much improving in thir 4-8 year span. We\'re in a shithole we have so many problems that need to be fixed its gonna happen over time if it happens at all
It would take someone who isn\'t concerned with being re-elected to get things done. If you do what is right and not politically expedient you can get things done. The problem all these guys get in to is that they want to be reelected so they are beholden to the power players who hold re-election over their heads.
What is happening is a constant consolidation of power in the executive branch. that march has been on going forever. Congress prefers not to stick its neck out in any meaningful way and acquiesces their power to the president so they do not have to take responsibility for anything. Now the judicial branch is also very weary about getting in to "checking" the executive power. Essentially we now have a king. We have been moving away from rule of law to rule by man.
I want to hear more...
I\'ve always felt the real problem is coming from congress. I mean thats where the real debates are happening over pertinant bills and what not. I\'m not gonna lie, I really don\'t know much about what\'s current in terms of topics in congress. I know about the health insurance crap they spat out last year, and I understand the whole checks n balance system we have going, I just don\'t know what they\'ve been trying to do to fix our economy. I read an artice the other day talking about where a lot of our money has been going to, and its the CEOs of our major companies. For example, one guy who is CEO for one particular company received a raise from 39 million to 84 million dollars in 2 years. Seems like an irrational amount of money for anyone to make.
Oh yea tobacco and alcohol are legal yet marijuana is illegal, fucking people over with charges that do not do anything to harm anyone... just sayin
Post by: Igziabeher on May 09, 2011, 11:11:43 pm
as far as marijuana, that should be left to the states.
Post by: kindm's on May 10, 2011, 12:35:45 pm
Quote from: phish4breakfast;269123
Quote from: kindm\'s;269108Quote from: phish4breakfast;269106Anyone we put in there isn\'t gonna do much improving in thir 4-8 year span. We\'re in a shithole we have so many problems that need to be fixed its gonna happen over time if it happens at all
It would take someone who isn\'t concerned with being re-elected to get things done. If you do what is right and not politically expedient you can get things done. The problem all these guys get in to is that they want to be reelected so they are beholden to the power players who hold re-election over their heads.
What is happening is a constant consolidation of power in the executive branch. that march has been on going forever. Congress prefers not to stick its neck out in any meaningful way and acquiesces their power to the president so they do not have to take responsibility for anything. Now the judicial branch is also very weary about getting in to "checking" the executive power. Essentially we now have a king. We have been moving away from rule of law to rule by man.
I want to hear more...
I\'ve always felt the real problem is coming from congress. I mean thats where the real debates are happening over pertinant bills and what not. I\'m not gonna lie, I really don\'t know much about what\'s current in terms of topics in congress. I know about the health insurance crap they spat out last year, and I understand the whole checks n balance system we have going, I just don\'t know what they\'ve been trying to do to fix our economy. I read an artice the other day talking about where a lot of our money has been going to, and its the CEOs of our major companies. For example, one guy who is CEO for one particular company received a raise from 39 million to 84 million dollars in 2 years. Seems like an irrational amount of money for anyone to make.
Oh yea tobacco and alcohol are legal yet marijuana is illegal, fucking people over with charges that do not do anything to harm anyone... just sayin
Well we all remember school house rock.
Executive Branch (ie President) The Judicial Branch (ie Supreme Court) and Congress (house and Senate). All of these branches are supposed to check the others power. The idea being that none of these entities would ever give up power to the other. The power struggles are what keep everything in balance. Now what we have is the Congress which is essentially supposed to check the presidents power by controlling the budget, basically just doing what the executive branch wants. They simply give their power to the president on many matters and this creates precedent. A very good example of this is war or military budgeting. You may hear the term "Power of the Purse" bantered about when describing the power the congress holds over the president. Essentially the president can order whatever he wants but the congress has to fund it. If they don\'t fund it, it doesn\'t happen. But what we have seen for the last decade or more is that congress when it comes to military actions especially never bothers to use this power and simply hands the president a blank check. They will even go so far as to account for that money outside of normal budgets.
The Supreme Court is now doing some of this as well. We have seen on numerous occasions where the court will essentially say in matters of "National Security" we are not going to rule etc. By doing this they essentially are making the executives actions legal. We saw this in the debate over habeus reviews and many of the other 4th amendment related issues that have arisen in the past 10 years or so.
Now they all debate the BS so that it keeps the appearance that we all have a say or that our votes count etc. But the reality is that the dominant voice in Washington is $$$. Regular people don\'t have any so we get no voice. They have the big donors and private sector writing legislation that effects those industries. The fox is indeed guarding the hen house. The amount of public sector employees moving to the private sector (for increased wealth etc) who then turn around go back to work in the public sector is astonishing. This is the revolving door that they always talk about. You might recall Obama saying he was going to put a cap on hiring former lobbyists in his admin. That lasted all of about a week.
Post by: phish4breakfast on May 10, 2011, 12:44:32 pm
Makes me just want to count down the days til the next show
Post by: Igziabeher on May 10, 2011, 12:51:44 pm
Post by: Gfunk on May 10, 2011, 04:48:36 pm
Quote from: Igziabeher;269138
Big Corporations run the country, its a shame we can\'t just admit it and do something about it.
:sadban:
Post by: KEN RAFLOWITZ on May 10, 2011, 04:57:53 pm
Quote from: Gfunk;269141
Quote from: Igziabeher;269138Big Corporations run the country, its a shame we can\'t just admit it and do something about it.
:sadban:
Donald Trump would disagree.
Post by: Igziabeher on May 11, 2011, 11:39:50 am